Paperwork in the Digital Age and the Move to a Data-Centric World with Mang-Git Ng of Anvil | Soar Payments LLC
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Paperwork in the Digital Age and the Move to a Data-Centric World with Mang-Git Ng of Anvil

Say Goodbye to Paperwork Hassles with Anvil’s Data-Centric Solution. In this episode of PayPod, host Jacob Hollabaugh sits down with Mang-Git Ng of Anvil to discuss how their software aims to replace paperwork processes with digital workflows. Anvil is a single platform to automate PDF based processes and transform antiquated workflows. Watch this episode for a fun and interesting dive into this latest development in payments and fintech.

Payments & Fintech Insights In This Episode

  • How Anvil streamlines your workflow
  • Anvil’s e-signature compliance and how it takes your business to the next level
  • How Anvil moves PDF to web form
  • Anvil empowers mobile users everywhere
  • The way Anvil integrates AI
  • Traditional paperwork vs Anvil’s solutions
  • And so much more!

Today’s Guest

Mang-Git Ng : Anvil

Anvil is a San Francisco, CA based software company that specializes in providing digital document management services. Their technology enables the end user to create, convert, extract, and modify PDF forms into customized, dynamic web experiences. They work closely with the financial services industry using technology to automate business processes. Their goal is to help their customers reduce time wasted on manual information entry, while eliminating human error. Through their software, Anvil strives to strengthen operational excellence by maximizing employee talent, improving client experience. By utilizing Anvil’s no-code platform, their customers are able to streamline and digitize their business processes, taking advantage of Anvil’s unique logic engine and underlying API.

Featured on the Show

About PayPod

PayPod is the leading voice in the payments and fintech industry, covering payments, risk management and new technology. Host Jacob Hollabaugh interviews leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, as they discuss the latest developments in the payments and fintech industry.

Episode Transcript

Jacob: Welcome to PayPod. The Payments Industry Podcast. Each week, we’ll bring you in-depth conversations with leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world from payment processing to risk management and from new technology to entirely new payment types. If you want to know what’s happening in the world of fintech and payments, you’re in the right place. Hello, everyone. Welcome to PayPod. I’m your host, Jacob Hollabaugh. And today on the show we are talking about paperwork in the digital age and the continued movement towards a data centric world. Join me to explore these topics is Mang-Git Ng, founder and CEO of Anvil, the platform built to automate all of your paperwork. Mang Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Mang-Git: It’s a pleasure to be here.

Jacob: Yes. Let’s start where Anvil started coming up, I believe. I think I saw July 2018. So five year anniversary coming up soon, right? Congrats on that. Pretty cool. Yeah. What prompted you to want to start Anvil in the first place? If we can go back to that beginning, what about the world of digital paperwork data entry? Did you see that either needed fixing or could be done better? What prompted this company.

Mang-Git: Really all started as a consumer of paperwork or like an individual consumer. My partner and I were shopping around for mortgage rates. We wanted to get the best rate back when it was still below six. Yeah, and we reached out to a couple bankers and when we reached out to the bankers, they would email us back with a PDF attachment saying, Fill this out, send it in. What I realized was that all of the PDFs were asking for the same information and it was all highly sensitive information and they wanted it as an email attachment. So it was one a terrible experience. It was not secure and I just felt like I was repeating myself all the time just to get a interest rate quote. That was probably the aha moment. But I would say a lot of other things played into this moment. One of them was my time at Flexport. I worked at a company that did shipping logistics. It was a tech company. And if you know anything about logistics, it’s extremely paperwork heavy. And what they were trying to do was digitize that process. But to get the documents into Flexport or the data into Flexport required a team of individuals to type it in. That was kind of like the data entry aspect. I was like, Oh, we’re doing all this effort to go from paperwork to data. How can we make that a little bit better? How can we streamline that? And internally, the idea was always to push the software to the edges. And when it’s on the edges, you can capture the data in a structured format to start. Yeah, that’s how we kind of arrived at Anvil.

Jacob: Gotcha. And can you give a quick overview of the different services Anvil offers now today? And if guess if they were any different from what those original one, what you’ve built on, but where it’s at today.

Mang-Git: At the core of it, Anvil is trying to build or is building the platform that allows any business, generally tech companies, to build software that automates paperwork. In recent years, there’s been a huge trend towards vertical SaaS companies, whether it’s fintech and tech, logistics, tech. But with all of these companies, they eventually hit this roadblock, which is paperwork because it’s an incumbent industry. There’s documented processes, there’s government documents they need to fill out. And so Anvil provides the software layer to interface between this online data first World to this offline PDF Paperwork World in a way that the software engineer can continue to work with modern APIs, modern technology and Anvil handles all of the paperwork aspects of it after the fact. So in terms of our product, we really have one core product that has also been we’ve enabled developers to inject themselves at various points of it, but the core product is what we call workflows, and it combines web forms. So true mobile friendly web forms with PDF generation. So it takes the data, puts it on the PDFs and e-signatures, so you can send it through e-signatures. And the benefit of using workflows is that all of the data is captured in a web form, which means the data can flow directly into your database. The output of a workflow is structured data as well as the signed documents, and then each of those pieces obviously could just use a web form. You could just generate documents, you could just use the e-signature, you can insert yourself in any of those pieces if you want. And then we allow these companies to customize and embed it into their products. So they really use it to build their customer facing products.

Jacob: So for the layman like me, that moment, you know, I hear like an e-signature or something. I think of couple of the big names in that world, like a DocuSign or something. But the difference here, if I’m reading this correctly, is you’re allowing an API integration for a company to build this type of stuff into what they’re already doing versus, Oh, we need a document sign. Like we can go over to one of these companies and send via their stuff on their platform. You’re integrating it into them so it’s seamless into what they actually are doing themselves.

Mang-Git: Yeah, that’s a great summary. That’s exactly it. The way we think of ourselves is if you wanted to use a payment system, you could use PayPal or Venmo or you could use Stripe, and Stripe is really just embedded in the background and it allows you to elevate your own product and keep everything inside of your own product that you’re building. That’s what Anvil does. We allow you to elevate your own product.

Jacob: Definitely. Our listenership is familiar because Payments is the core of this podcast. It’s really the embedded nature of that. And then all the other fintechs and all the other tech that we really talk about what are then. The core benefits you’re offering. I would assume, you know, between time, savings, money, savings, headaches, all the above. What stands out as the core benefit to the companies that are using your integrations?

Mang-Git: This really depends on the firmographics of the company that’s using us. I think for a smaller company, let’s say a series c or a series a startup, it’s time to market the amount of time it takes to build an Anvil workflow to replace an offline PDF workflow is ten x 100 x faster than building it by hand. And also, I don’t think a lot of people realize this. They think PDFs or they think, Oh, digital file format should be easy. No, it’s actually a huge pain to work with PDFs. They are coordinate based vectors. They’re made for rendering information onto a piece of paper. That’s why the PDF file format was created. It was not made to transfer data. That’s how it’s used today. You put data on it, somebody looks at it and takes data off of it. That’s not what the PDF was made for. So it’s actually really painful to work with PDFs. So that’s on the low end, on the high end, in terms of larger companies that have reached some kind of scale, oftentimes what we see is that they’ve automated some parts of the process and it’s worked fine to get them to where they are, but they are increasingly throwing more people at the problem. So they’re trying to become better operationally with humans and that scales linearly. That doesn’t scale exponentially. So they have a you know, oftentimes they hit this breaking point. They start looking around for solutions and fine anvil and it allows them to own and keep the brand that they already have and offload all of the document aspects of it to Anvil so that they don’t have to worry about it. And Anvil scales really well with these types of customers.

Jacob: Yeah, that makes total sense. And you mentioned this earlier, but to pivot for a second to the other place where myself as a layman in this world, like the first thing I kind of think of is compliance with all of this. When I hear something like embedding or e-signature, anything like that, if I’m like a business owner, I immediately am worried about like, am I going to set this up in a way that this is actually legally binding? It’s one thing for me to be able to like embed an e-signature cool. But I start to think of does that actually matter? Is you the company helping me? Are you liable or telling me what is legally binding? What’s not? Am I? So how do you and Anvil go about compliance? Is it the developer building the tool, adding the integration in that needs to know what they’re doing. The user you who where’s the responsibility kind of fall on the compliance front?

Mang-Git: We really think about compliance in a couple of different ways, right? There’s standard soc2 compliance, right? So we meet Soc2 and HIPAA compliance standards. We do work with companies in the EU, so we also have GDPR compliance. We also work with highly regulated industries, highly that are collecting sensitive information, right? And Anvil goes the extra step to enable and make available the features to really secure your data collection from the end customer. Again, going back to my earliest example, which is PDFs with Social Security numbers and names for just to get a mortgage interest rate quote, right. Like not secure.

Jacob: As an email attachment. Yeah. Like just horrific.

Mang-Git: Exactly. And I don’t know if they print it out and just like, you know, put it in the trash. Who knows, Right. So that’s another aspect of compliance. And then just to really dig into kind of e-signature compliance a little bit, Anvil is built from the ground up to really adhere to all of the esign laws that’s just baked in. If you integrate us with our APIs, it’s baked in another aspect that Anvil kind of provides as part of the e-signature is within the e-signature, the companies that offer e-signature, right? When you sign a PDF, you essentially cryptographically hash the document. So you say you sign it with a certificate that says at this point in time this document looked like this. And we use a certificate that was issued by an authority. Anvil has gone out and received and gotten one of those certificates from an authority that then we reuse to sign all of our documents. So there’s a chain all the way back up to these certified authority organizations that that like the Internet, has has agreed upon. And that’s not cheap. So when you sign something with Anvil and you open it up in Adobe, let’s say it says verified valid signature green checkmark, if you don’t use something with a certificate like that, it doesn’t have that. So we’ve gone above and beyond. In that sense.

Jacob: That makes sense. And that’s actually that last part is fascinating because I’ve kind of always wondered that myself exactly when I’ve signed using different services and in different meanings and ways of thinking, not even from a business owner, but of the consumer of like, wait a minute, how is this generated scribble that supposedly says my name, How does that actually work? So. Fascinating then of the couple of things that kind of stand out as I went through your website and some of the blog posts and different things is the idea of no code solutions, which I think have started to be more of a buzzword, but an actual all buzzwords. Hopefully most of them are actual real things that matter. And this one I think certainly is in this space. So walk me through a little bit of your solutions. Do the people you’re working with need a pretty high end developer to be able to integrate this, or do you have the idea of no code solutions? Is that the future for Anvil and more broadly, outside of even your company, do you kind of see that as one of the big trends? To be successful in different worlds is being able to offer more and more no code or low code type of opportunities for companies to bring in fascinating tech like what you’ve got, but be able in a way where they don’t have to have a huge tech team to be able to develop and integrate it themselves.

Mang-Git: That’s a great question. When we think about no code, I think about it on two main vectors. The first one is how do we invite right non-technical people to help build the product that you’re selling? And this is important, especially when it comes to paperwork, because oftentimes those are the people that have the knowledge and understanding of the documents and the process around them to actually build the proper workflow. Imagine if TurboTax was built by only engineers and no tax accountants. It might get 95% of the way there, but you’re probably going to be audited at some point. So that’s important. Inviting those people in to help build the other way. Think about it is that not everything should be in code. A lot of people think that an engineer just wants to write code all day, but I don’t think that’s actually true. Take, for example, TerraForm. It’s a way to use a UI to drag and drop and set up your kind of infrastructure, your computing infrastructure. You could write that by hand in a configuration file, or you could use this really nice UI to do it, and it’s faster, it’s surfaces errors to you. It helps you do it in a more accurate way and it’s more fun, right? So I don’t think that the no code tool that we provide is not just geared towards non-technical people, it’s also geared towards making technical people more efficient and faster and getting them to be able to work on the interesting parts of their product.

Jacob: And I would imagine to to also give them a chance like the trial and error aspect, like when it comes to paperwork, as you were saying, you would need the people who know what the process needs to be and the information that you need to gather. But I’d imagine there’s also some a little trial and error of the first iteration that we put out wasn’t the most efficient process, wasn’t 100% streamlined. And when you’re working again, not actually writing the full code hand by hand if you are, that takes a long time to be like almost start over and rewrite everything hand by hand versus a little bit easier building blocks of being able to like, okay, we want to make this adjustment. You don’t have to rewrite everything. It’s a little easier to go in and make the adjustments and get to the most efficient end process.

Mang-Git: Yeah, exactly. Like I think there, you know, with, with code, there’s like code release processes, there’s time, there’s testing with Anvil, there’s obviously still testing. But what we’ve done is we’ve created more clearly defined boundaries between each of those building blocks, between the field on the web form to the page of the web form to the web form itself, and how it connects to each field on the PDF. And we’ve created more tight rules around it that, you know, will interact in a certain way. And then on top of that, Anvil also provides version control. So you can always roll it back and if you ever mess anything up. So it really is about increasing that velocity to building a new workflow or a new process that that replaces the paperwork process. One last thing I would add in here is going back to my earlier point about PDFs being really painful to work with. Like at every single company I’ve worked at where we’ve had to deal with documents and I’ve worked at a few. When a PDF changes, let’s say, let’s say you have a 2018 W-4 and then now 2023, they released a new version of it and that PDF changes. Traditionally if you’re trying to build software to automate that that document, you would have an engineer essentially hand code that PDF into the system. And when they change it, that engineer then has to spend a bunch of time hand coding the new one, whether it’s like mapping out all the boxes or whatever, Anvil gives you a UI for that. So it essentially just becomes a upload, drag and drop draw some boxes, really nice UI and then you can immediately use that document with all the fields on it as part of your software development process or the pillar of it. So that just like again, kind of the developer doesn’t want to hand code PDFs, let’s put it that way.

Jacob: Yeah, it might be the best use of their time sometimes, but it’s not the most fun use of their time for them and you probably want to keep those people happy, the same as you should hopefully want to keep all of the people on your team happy. Let’s turn to. Another item I saw you say a couple times in blog posts or other interviews, and that is that you want to help move the world from paperwork centric to data centric. We’ve kind of explored a little bit of what I think you mean by that already in this conversation, but can you explain in full what you mean by trying to take the world from paperwork centric to data centric and what maybe that transition looks like for you?

Mang-Git: Yeah, this is funny. I’m actually giving a talk on this in about a month’s time. So a nice.

Jacob: Little warm up.

Mang-Git: A little bit of a preview. Yeah, You.

Jacob: Can give us the Cliff Notes version pending how long that talk is.

Mang-Git: Yeah, your listeners can tell me if it’s good or bad if I should change it. What I mean by that is if we take a look back in time, paperwork is effectively a way by which you standardize data collection and you standardize a process and you use that paperwork to really get access to various services in society, whether that’s applying for a mortgage or applying for Social Security. It’s the interface by which you get things done in society. And so that’s worked great for 50 years or 100 years, however many years. And a lot of society and especially government is based on this. So I don’t want to like knock paperwork by any means. But in that time frame we’ve created this little thing called the Internet. That paperwork just has not really adapted to. We’ve kind of like wrangled it into the Internet by using PDFs as attachments, but it’s still not really data first, right? Like there’s a reason why there are tons of OCR companies out there just like optical character recognition. They take a PDF and they pull information off of it and they’re getting pretty good, but it’s still not 100% accurate. I think what Anvil is really when we say we want to move from a paperwork centric world to a data centric world, it’s really how do we build this modern API into a kind of like existing system. And the existing system is this paperwork system. And we do that with our tools. And the idea being that, hey, if I’m a small company in the insurance space, I don’t have enough market power to move the insurance company and say, Hey, you should do things this way, like API first data first structured.

Mang-Git: Nobody’s going to listen. They’re going to be like, We’ve done this 100 years, it’s fine, but you can make your life a little bit easier by using Anvil to like give you that interface that is data first and then you can interface with the rest of the world with the documents that are generated out of Anvil. So you bridge that gap between the old world and the new world. And the nice thing is when the world decides to move to that new world, you’re already there. You already have five, ten years of data and it’s structured and you’ve been interfacing with documents and e-signatures and onboarding data collection over an API all that time, so you’re already leaps and bounds ahead of your competitors. So that’s what I mean by a paperwork centric to data centric world. One last thing I’ll add here that is really like a mission of mine and I believe a lot of people at the company here is that at the end of the day, we really view paperwork as an accessibility problem. It is important to have paperwork as one channel by which you can get access to services and goods, but a lot of people just don’t have access to printers or access to physical documents, right? They have mobile devices. And with Anvil, you can use mobile devices. So we think of it as an accessibility problem since Covid and not having access to an office like where do I find a printer anymore? Right?

Jacob: Like I was already going to say. Yeah. And I don’t know exactly how old you are, but I imagine we’re around the same age and we’re kind of that first generation too. That’s like I didn’t like when I yeah, when I was in school, I used the school’s printers. And then when I became like an adult in the real world, I was never going to spend like $100 on a printer. So any time the couple times like in my 20s where it was like the person I’m renting my apartment from is super old school. Like, you need to print this out, fill it out by hand and bring it in. I’m like, okay, well, I got to find like a Fedex, I guess nearby or something to print this and do this. And yeah, I’m like, Yeah, no one, no one has the physical stuff unless I’m doing it right there in person. And even then I’m like, Do you have like an iPad? Can you send me a link? Can I do this on my phone? It doesn’t feel as secure to fill out a piece of paper in front of you and hand it to you because I don’t know what you’re going to do with it. And it’s going to be faster and better for everyone. So you’re leading us in the right direction, which it’s been. It’s kind of mind blowing looking back that this is one of the industries that’s been a little slower to adapt to the digital age. Do you think is there anything reasons why or is it just kind of the the industries that paperwork’s most prevalent in or they’ve been around forever, kind of older, stodgy, stuck in our ways, we’re not going to change. What do you think were the friction points and am I correct in saying in the last 20 years of everything going digital, I feel like. This is lagging a little bit behind when part of me would think like it would have been one of the first ones to kind of adapt.

Mang-Git: Yes, it’s a more established industry. There has been processes that have worked for years that way. It’s a little bit of like, why don’t don’t change something that ain’t broke. On the other side, it’s also a competitive advantage for the incumbents if they make it difficult for a newcomer to provide a digital version of this experience and say, no, you have to eventually output it onto a PDF or onto this document. Um. That essentially reduces competitiveness. It’s kind of like using regulation and regulations actually is a great example. The more regulation you have, the more generally bureaucracy you have and paperwork you have. And larger companies do use regulation as a way to create a higher, bigger moat for or a bigger wall for people to overcome.

Jacob: Barrier to entry.

Mang-Git: Yeah, exactly. So I do think that that might be part of it. I mean, speculating here, but that’s that’s my hunch. And then also there is this idea of it process change is probably the hardest part of this, like getting data, putting it on a PDF that was like the first thing we solved. We solved it in like the first month, not hard. What we found to be really difficult to do was actually taking all of those rules and then encoding it into an anvil workflow. That was a hard thing to do and it required kind of like a really nice UI for somebody to go build it. Like the idea is really like going back to the tax example. It’s like for those who haven’t looked at a real physical tax form, you grab the tax form and then you grab a three page document that has all the instructions on how to fill out that tax form inclusive of a worksheet. How do you take those three pages and boil it down to something that is automatic inside of the workflow? And that’s what Anvil supports and we think we support in quite an elegant way in the way we enable somebody to take those rules and bake them in. But yeah, that’s the hard part.

Jacob: Yeah, it makes total sense. Another thing that stuck out when I was doing a little research and prep for this conversation, one of the articles I was reading it said that if you considered anywhere PDFs are being used as your TAM, your total addressable market, then the market size was north of $2 trillion. And obviously that’s a massive, massive number. Do you agree with that as kind of like a market size of how much this is going on? And can you kind of just in general speak to the size and scope of the benefits that solutions like yours offer?

Mang-Git: Yeah, absolutely. And kind of just to double down on that, I think that $2 trillion number is for the US only.

Jacob: Wow. So we’re talking even more.

Mang-Git: If you just combine all of the paperwork that is being done and this is like I’m not talking about redlining, I’m not talking about contract like negotiations, I’m talking about here’s a document that some organization decided to standardize that gets sent out, that gets filled out, that gets brought back, that gets signed however you choose. Right. There is health care, there’s insurance, there’s government, there’s finance. Right. Fintech, right. There is all of these logistics, you know, all of these industries that have these documents. And then you think about the work and effort that is required to do all of that. Like somebody is some person is reading these documents and typing it into their Salesforce, typing it into their internal risk management systems, or they’re trying to use OCR to do it, which then also needs a check. You know, like there’s just a lot of work being done that is literally moving data onto and off of paperwork. And so I do believe it is a massive TAM. Now what we capture all of it. Absolutely. No, no. I mean.

Jacob: I don’t think you’ll be talking to me a second time if you capture all of that or pretty much anyone at that point. Let me pose this to you, though, While even even if you got a small portion of that, you’re obviously doing really, really well. But do you think that because what you’re introducing is kind of efficiencies as benefit, that that market size may shrink over time by virtue of some of what’s currently being done, being repetitive work, being too much effort involved, that if your solutions remove that it does again, not like it’s like, oh, the market’s gone like now we no one needs us anymore. But that is naturally going to shrink some because part of that is kind of this excess that you’re literally your benefit is we’re removing a lot of that.

Mang-Git: Yeah, that’s probably the first time I’ve thought about this way, and it’s a great, great way to think about it, but I would counter that a little bit with, you know. So anvil today is very much focused on paperwork automation. But earlier I mentioned that like when we’re in that future state, you’re already ahead of your competitors. And the whole reason is because Anvil maintains the data throughout our system, or you can pull it out of our system and delete it from our system, but we maintain it in a structured format for you. With PDF, it’s like the one of a digital file format. What’s V2 and is V2 a internet first internet centric version of that? So what Anvil is really hoping to do is to create a common language or a common way of sending and sharing information that is intended to be shared. So you go to five banks, they ask you for your name and five different ways. Full name, first name, last name, maiden name, whatever. Like what if I walked into a bank and I wanted a mortgage and they said, Great, go to this link, it’s an anvil link. And we pre-populate that entire anvil form for you and send the data over because it’s already structured in Anvil. We can do that. And so that’s really the goal to create this normalized way of sending information between two parties in order to get something done.

Jacob: Very cool. That leads then to my final question I have for you, and it’s another trend related and it’s 2023, which means I think I’m actually legally required at this point to ask about AI and machine learning in the year 2023. So obviously you operate in tech, you operate in data, which combine tells me you must already be operating with the assistance of some AI machine learning tools. Am I right about that? And if so, how are you using them to grow your capabilities and what impact do you kind of see those types of tools having on what you’re trying to do in the near future?

Mang-Git: So with the current trend of AI, mostly around large language models, we really think of it as a workflow enhancer is kind of how I think about it today with the the, let’s take an example that could be a great use case for Anvil. Not saying we’re working on it yet or maybe we will, but imagine if you were to upload a PDF. The PDF was one of those documents that had blanks in the middle of sentences. It’s like on this day of blank, blah blah blah in the state of blank. And that’s a very different kind of document from a document has boxes of first name, last name, whatever. Now imagine if you uploaded any one of those documents and you wanted to create a web form out of it. Today, Anvil will find the fields and generate a web form, which does a pretty good job. But the thing that’s missing is really like, what’s the label that you put on the web form field to give enough context so that the person provides you the correct information, Right? So if the rule was the word immediately preceding the blank, so on this day of blank, then the label would have been of. Which makes absolutely no sense. It could be anything. It could be anything. There’s this ability to contextualize rise and then boil down information around the space into a label that could be applied on the web form so that it does provide enough context for somebody to answer correctly. It’s like on this day of would be the label, right? You would you would actually know how many characters.

Mang-Git: So that’s one thing that could happen. We’re also thinking about translations like translating workflows that we have in our system into other languages. This is actually already a problem we encounter. We have a couple of companies that use us to create onboarding workflows for hiring migrant farm workers, and not all of them speak English. And so how can we make it so that you create the workflow once in English or your language of choice and it auto translates into all the languages that you need it to be in. We have a customer that hires across Europe. Every European country has a different language, right? And then the last piece that I’m really excited to explore more about is this ability to take those rule sets that take prose, the instruction sets, and actually generate snippets of JavaScript that actually does some logic automatically and put them in the right places. So think of it as like GitHub copilot, but for a non-technical person that just wants to apply some logic on a field that says if this field is filled out, show this field, if these two fields are filled out, do this math on it and then put it over here. Like that kind of logic and formulas, those are supported today, but it is manual. It requires somebody to write some code and it would be great if it was just auto generated.

Jacob: Yeah, certainly. And back to kind of what we had said before when talking to no code and low code stuff that would help folks like myself be able to be like, you know, I don’t have to find someone super tech savvy like yourself to do this thing that I know what I want to do, but being able to then actually do it would be a massive efficiency and a massive benefit. So all that’s. Sounds like you’re headed in all the right directions in Mang. This has really been great to learn from you in about Anvil. For those listening who might want to follow you or the company, keep up with what you’ve got going on, where would be the best place for them to go to do so?

Mang-Git: Check us out at UseAnvil.com That’s W-w-w dot use anvil.com. Feel free to follow me on LinkedIn. It’s slash in slash manggit and look forward to connecting with everybody.

Jacob: Love it. We will of course link to all those and more in the show notes. So definitely give him and the company a follow. Mang. Thank you for giving us your time and knowledge. It’s been a real pleasure. Hope to speak to you again sometime soon.

Mang-Git: This was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on the show.

Jacob: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, head on over to.com/podcast to subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice. That’s s o a r p a y.com/podcast.