The Expanding and Evolving World of Verification and Transaction Monitoring with Ilya Brovin of Sumsub

Are you in the cryptocurrency industry and struggling to keep up with the regulations? Then you can’t miss this episode of PayPod! host Jacob Hollabaugh sits down with Ilya Brovin of Sumsub to discuss the complex world of compliance and fraud prevention in the fintech space. Sumsub is an all-in-one verification platform designed to catch fraudsters and aid businesses in meeting compliance regulations worldwide. Don’t miss out on this informative episode for a fun interesting dive into this latest development in payments and fintech!

Payments & Fintech Insights In This Episode

Today’s Guest

Ilya Brovin : Sumsub

Sumsub is the one verification platform to secure the whole user journey. With Sumsub’s customizable KYC, KYB, transaction monitoring and fraud prevention solutions, you can orchestrate your verification process, welcome more customers worldwide, meet compliance requirements, reduce costs and protect your business. Sumsub has over 2,000 clients across the fintech, crypto, transportation, trading and gaming industries including Mercuryo, Bybit, Huobi, Unlimint, DiDi, Poppy and TransferGo.

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About PayPod

PayPod is the leading voice in the payments and fintech industry, covering payments, risk management and new technology. Host Jacob Hollabaugh interviews leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, as they discuss the latest developments in the payments and fintech industry.

Episode Transcript

Jacob: Welcome to PayPod, the Payments Industry podcast. Each week, we’ll bring you in-depth conversations with leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world from payment processing to risk management and from new technology to entirely new payment types. If you want to know what’s happening in the world of fintech and payments, you’re in the right place. Hello, everyone. Welcome to PayPod. I’m your host, Jacob Hollabaugh. And today on the show, we are diving into the world of verification, monitoring and fraud. The space continues to expand and evolve as more and more of our lives become digitized. And as consumers and businesses continue to walk that line between privacy, security, but with speed and ease of access. And luckily for us, we’ve got a great guest to help explore and explain some of these topics and what is happening within this industry right now, we are joined by Ilya Brovin, Chief Growth Officer at Sumsub, the one verification platform to secure the whole user journey. Ilya, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Ilya: Thank you, Jacob, for having me.

Jacob: Yes, absolutely. Very excited for this. And let’s start with just before we even get into the industry itself, let’s start with just a quick overview of who Samsub is, the company you work with and what you offer. Can you give me the the listeners some background on the company? Tell us what the services you have to offer are.

Ilya: Sure. Yeah. So Sumsub of it’s been around for about eight years now. We work globally. We have around 2000 clients right now for whom we do the full compliance stack from user identification and ongoing compliance monitoring. We cover verticals as such as fintechs, lots of crypto. It can be gaming or gambling. Those are all regulated cases. We also have a large portion of clients that are not regulated but are using our tools or parts of our tools for more risk management fraud monitoring, even if they don’t have to necessarily comply with certain regulations. It’s a highly automated solution. You know, when we all work inside or customers value the onboarding rates, the best rates, but at the same time, on the regulated business side, they value the fact that they can be compliant, not have any issues with regulators, and also the fact that they can rely on us in terms of that regulatory and compliance knowledge that they need if they operate across many markets. So that’s very, very briefly about what we do.

Jacob: Yeah, certainly. And it’s definitely the one area that every time we speak with someone in this world like this is the part a business owner, the consumer is almost never really think about this part of the industries. The business owners usually like to think about it last, even though maybe they should be thinking about it first because of the importance of all everything that you’re doing, how important it is to actually be able to function as a business within all of these spaces verification, transaction monitoring, fraud, everything. Are you competing with other third party companies who specialize in these same types of services, or has it traditionally been more in-house? You know, the payment processors, the other SaaS companies, whatever they’re doing, trying to do this verification on the side is this kind of new territory to be doing it purely as a specialized service?

Ilya: Mostly compete with third party companies that are interested. You mentioned the different segments. I think the trend we see in the industry on the provider side is actually it’s kind of merging between many things. You have the identification and onboarding part of the anti-fraud players, you have the compliance solutions. I think it’s all merging very much. In terms of the in-house, I’d say the we do have a lot of small, small sized clients. So it might be that somebody that is just a startup, they just launched something, they might start doing this in-house because maybe the integration cost doesn’t sort of pay for itself. But as companies scale normally that is something they do outsource. What we do is a monk or service for a lot of these businesses, you know, you would never find a business that says, I’m winning against my competition because my onboarding is the best. Don’t worry in the world or my compliance is the best compliance in the world. And so they need to focus on their business, what they do best, the service they provide, and certainly rely on companies like us to cover the base and provide the best onboarding experience for users while optimizing their funnel and on. So we got to sit at the intersection of the compliance, the risk management and the product itself. And we have many internal stakeholders that we have to balance their interests.

Jacob: Yeah, fascinating. And so of the different kind of services or fields you touched, Let’s talk about user verification first. I think every business owner has heard the acronym KYC and AML when they’re setting up their own verifications and different things, but probably still has no idea what they mean. Could you explain what KYC and AML are? And then specific to Sumsub what your offer is within those and the benefit or importance that it offers?

Ilya: Yeah. And KYC is know your customer. I mean, it comes from the regulatory world where the regulation says that any provider of any financial service needs to know who their customer is, not just knowing that, you know, John is John, but also knowing their profile, how they’re going to be using the service, where they’re going to be sending the payments. And they need to know that they’re not providing their services to people they’re not supposed to provide them before. And so you have the two parts, the KYC part. The part is about knowing who their customer is and their usage patterns. The AML part is around that. The person or organization not being on politically exposed lists, you know, sanctions, lists, any sort of blacklists that you cannot do business with. That’s what it is. And as I mentioned, you know, a big chunk of our business and this comes from the regulatory world, but also lots of other businesses that are not regulated, but they do want to know who their customers are. And a great example is, for example, a car sharing company. Somebody’s going to drive a car that you’re giving to them on a per minute or per hour basis. You never have seen that person. You know, you don’t interact with them personally, but they might steal a car. And so you still want to know who they are because you’re taking financial risk on them. Both of these use cases effectively, it’s about identifying the person. But when we talk about it from a regulatory point of view, obviously each business then has local regulatory regime with which within which they need to operate was. One thing that we do particularly well is because we operate globally across 200 countries and territories, is that we allow our customers to use one provider like us but across many geographies and be compliant with each of those geographies, which, if you think about it for every business, becomes a nightmare. If you need to think about what’s happening in the UK and France, the US and many other emerging markets can be completely different.

Jacob: Yeah. Is that kind of one of the main selling points is just the global scale of what you can do, because I’ve seen that in this world and pretty much every industry now, the more global everything becomes, especially like when we’re on this podcast, always talking payments and fintech. It’s which are the third parties that whatever I need done can do that thing. But everywhere. And I don’t have to hire a dozen different people to handle different places. Is that kind of the main thing that separates you from competitors that are doing this as well?

Ilya: I’d say that definitely separates a few competitors from a very, very large pool because it might seem like there are hundreds of companies doing the service, which might be true. But in a lot of cases you can have local providers that can just work in one market, be that big or small. But if you have a business that operates across many jurisdictions, then you have a choice of going for many local solutions and then you are faced with integrating multiple things. So obviously working with the main providers that can do it across many market makes a difference. So part of it is that knowledge about local regulatory. The second part is about having the local tools and sometimes call us going from global to multi local because in effect the compliance is local everywhere and you might have a local set of tools that can be used to to satisfy those requirements that don’t necessarily need to be uniform across the world. And so actually having the ability to say, if I have a user from Germany, then let them follow this flow. And if I have a user from the UK, this is the flow for them and we are able to offer some local methods that are just specific to Germany or the UK or any other country. That’s what matters for our customers.

Jacob: Yeah, and it makes perfect sense into that. Kind of gets to what I alluded to in the intro and we’ll, I’ll ask you a little more specifically about later, but being able to find that balance of we need to be compliant, we need to be protected and safe, but also making sure every consumer, every user has the easiest, most frictionless possible path. So being able to say in each country, yeah, in Germany you don’t have to do this step that we have to do in the States or in the UK or wherever else, so we can remove that, remove as much friction as we can to still be compliant and protected. Let’s turn to transaction monitoring for a second here. Your transaction monitoring work is a standalone service. If someone just wanted that or is it better suited in tandem with all of your offerings, as you said, you know, the kind of the real offering behind it is we’re doing all of these things that used to be or sometimes can be their own separate entities together. Is it mostly standalone service work or does having those offerings together give that full data set? And how kind of important really is it just having that full data set to be able to do each of these parts?

Ilya: We obviously have been in the automotive and KYC provider for many years. We launched our transaction monitoring last year and the way we thought about this, it’s a very natural extension of us actually knowing the people or the users of our clients from the time they onboarded with us. So we actually know a lot about their behavior, about their devices, how they onboarded, where they uploaded from, which documents. So we felt that transaction monitoring was a very natural extension to that. Obviously it can be purchased as a separate solution. Obviously it’s a slightly different integration because it’s a transaction based integration rather than a person based event, so to say. Right. But obviously it works much better if you use all of it. And the way we’ve built it, it’s one complete platform. So you’re not actually buying separate products. You may you can get a similar functionality, but it comes within the same platform and we feel that it makes a lot of sense for our customers. The way we’ve built it, it’s and actually a lot of times customers sometimes confuse it with crypto monitoring. For example, tools like Chainalysis, for example.

Ilya: Right? So ours is a rules based engine where you can set up any type of rules to monitor any type of transaction, whether that’s crypto. And interestingly, when we were building this, it kind of turned upside down the way we thought about our product. Actually, everything is a transaction. Onboarding itself is a transaction. The log in is a transaction. So effectively then you write rules around how to use for each of those events and all of the anti-fraud tools that we’ve had have through transaction monitoring that’s be able to score and rate and make decisions about any step of the journey all of a sudden becomes like an all in one solution. And that’s why we think it makes sense for our customers to use it all. But they don’t have to. They can use it. Modularly But I think where most value comes from, if they do actually use all of it, but obviously it’s a new tool for us. We’re offering our new clients to our existing clients and the adoption is slowly growing, so we think it’s a really solution.

Jacob: Yeah, and that’s a fascinating view that I hadn’t really thought of before, but it makes complete sense of each of those steps is its own type of transaction. They are, in the end, kind of the same thing is happening. One might be moving money and one might be just moving you into an account view versus your, you know, public facing view. But they all are kind of the same little trigger points that are based on here’s the rules. Yes, you can go to this next step.

Ilya: Some sort of consumer actual behavior and all of those. That’s where actually the. Blinds and the wrist angle come together, you know, because you as a business, as a businessman, you want to know, can I work with this? Can I sell them this, this service, this product, or do they look like a fraudster? And that means, am I going to get trouble from the regulator or am I going to lose money?

Jacob: Certainly. And speaking of the fraudsters out there and the kind of balance I’ve alluded to a couple of times, you’re working on, you know, the fraud and security side of things when it comes to transactions specifically. But consumers are at this point demanding more and more close to frictionless checkout environments, which means businesses have to be able to really balance that speed and safety. And then when coming and working with companies like Samsung or Apple, you to balance that like it needs to be fast, it needs to be effortless, but it also needs to be compliant and safe. So how do you and Subsub kind of think about that balance? And is there anything specific to your products where you’re really trying to find that balance of as frictionless as possible, but still meeting requirements, both actual regulatory ones and standards you think that your clients should be having for to let people through the door?

Ilya: Yeah, well, first of all. Compliance standards are very different for different products and services. Secondly, there is the lens through which our customers are businesses. Look at this. They have their own view of what the risk profile is for them. Do they want to prioritize speed of onboarding and frictionless versus compliance? And different businesses do have different risk views, so we could never have one set of tools, one sort of product and say, this is the product you need. Or we even wouldn’t really be able to say even within one industry and one geography, this is the product you need because each business will take a different view on how they want to do this. And so ultimately what we give them will give them a full toolkit and they can set up and in any sort of combination they want and to any degree that they want. And like degrees I’m talking about, for example, is it a fully automated solution? Do you want to make your fallback? Who wants to do the manual verification? Maybe sometimes the client wants to do it. Sometimes the client wants us to do it.

Ilya: Which sort of documents you let through, not let through. So they can do a lot of this setup and we work with them to implement what it is that they want. Obviously, once they’ve set the bar and their requirements, it’s on us to make sure we deliver that. And speaking specifically about anti fraud and user behavior. Look, it’s always an arms race between people who try to trick the system or take advantage of any business, whether that’s on the fraud side or when you try to create multiple accounts to earn some benefits or perks and so on. So it’s much easier right now with AI, you can create deepfakes, make it look like you are a true user, whereas in reality you’re a fraudster. And so this is where lots of things are happening under the hood that the customer doesn’t really need to think about anymore. Yes, they set up flow. They can optimize the balance between security and speed, but what happens in the back is that we fulfill those standards and we don’t let things like deepfakes through, you know, we catch fraudsters, fraudulent documents, anything.

Jacob: And more on the AI content in a moment, because I do have one specific recent news story that I’m going to ask you about at the end here. But before on the the fact that, you know, your clients, you’re giving them this full tool kit, letting them kind of pick and choose what exactly they want. Have there been either from some sub or industry wide? Are there like studies done on being able to tell those people, hey, within this tool kit, if you want to add this, it kind of this extra layer of detection brings in this loss of customer or this little layer of friction, brings in this type of loss or any info or studies you can point them to of this is what’s your compliant. But if you want to add this next layer on top, this is kind of the potential benefit and loss type of scenario you’re looking at.

Ilya: The real answer is like every every single product is very different. You know, what happens more often than not is our customers. They can test various features, so they build their flows, but then on their user base and their behavior, that’s when they test. If we add something, what happens to them? You know, users come from different places, you know, have different documents, same type of service that’s happening in the US and where an American person onboarding somebody from Asia may be completely different because of the documents they use, the alphabets quality of video. In some regions you have bad quality of connection. All of that affects ultimate conversion rates or pass rates. And so you really have to optimize on your specific user base.

Jacob: Yeah, certainly, and I love that. Then yeah, allowing them to test that themselves because definitely you might hear, oh, a two factor authentication means this many people drop out. Well what industry, what types of clients are those? And yeah.

Ilya: If everybody see that’s how you implement even perfection, how do you implement it? Do you have enough flexibility to actually reduce to absolute minimum the extra friction it gives? That’s where the difference in service and the difference in the product comes through, because some companies in our space have much more set products with much less flexibility, and that’s where they might be constrained by not being able to do some of the things that would optimize this balance.

Jacob: Certainly. Let’s move to a specific vertical You work in. You referenced crypto earlier on and is definitely a space. Whenever I have someone on that is working within that world, I’m eager to ask them about. As someone who’s fascinated by it myself, correct me if I’m wrong, it does seem to be one of the verticals you’re quite focused on, and I think you alluded to that in your opening overview of the company, right?

Ilya: Definitely. One of the bigger verbs for us. Yes. Cool.

Jacob: And so in this new decentralized world, it operates very differently from at least for the time being, than the rest of the money ecosystem that normally this podcast is kind of focused on what types of fraud are maybe most prevalent in this new space. And just kind of overall, what are the big differences you’re seeing from a checks and verification standpoint in crypto versus the rest of the world? And do you kind of see I know there’s a bunch of questions on top of each other, but as you can tell, I’m fascinated by this world of do you see more the new things in the world of crypto having to transition closer to the how it used to be in other industries or other industries kind of learning from, Hey, this new thing is going well, maybe we need to move closer to it.

Ilya: Yeah. No, look, crypto is a very dynamic space. Obviously with its own set of growing pains. So in a few years ago, most players, let’s say majority of the players in the crypto space view themselves as completely unregulated and they’re not doing any sort of KYC or compliance. You know, but what happened very quickly with the growth of the asset class and sort of the publicity and attention it’s been getting, regulators around the world are it’s very clear they should be clear to everybody going to the this is a was absolutely a service or asset class, whatever you call it, that has to be regulated in the same way you regulate financial statements. Now, clearly the technology is different. The implementation is different, especially if we talk about DeFi, you know, in DeFi, centralized finance and crypto. I mean, it’s very similar to traditional finance and therefore, absolutely you would expect it to be completely covered by the same regulation actually, we can touch on this. You know, there’s a requirement called travel, for example, where the same rules that apply to traditional money transactions, which you do with respect to counterparties, have to send messages to each other that we verify both users and check them and send a message to persuade. The same applies to crypto and crypto right now is struggling. How do we actually implement it? There is no native solution to send messages before sending the crypto, so on the DeFi space, definitely think of it as similar to traditional finance. Now obviously DeFi becomes, which were interesting because it’s a completely different sort of architecture and it’s much harder to pinpoint who the players are, who you make responsible for.

Ilya: It’s like in Dallas space, right? There isn’t actually a company, there isn’t actually a business to be the subject of compliance, like being responsible, collecting personal data. There are attempts to create sort of digital native identities, you know, sole certain identities through sold out tokens and stuff like that. So. Extremely exciting developments. The challenge right now is you have the regulation that is very much traditionally views of the world from a traditional lens. There’s an organization, there’s a client, there’s a person, there’s not a wallet. You know, it’s not a Dao, right. And then you have technology that’s so much ahead. So the challenge is you still have to operate according to the rules that are set laws and the new technologies, even though they’re cool, they don’t. Yet there is no bridge between the regulation of the real world and the DeFi space. And I think companies like ours and we see a lot of projects are trying to bridge that gap. And I think we will be one of the key facilitators of that. But it will ultimately take both the regulators becoming more attuned to the fact that technology is different as well as these players realizing that they cannot act effectively and think that they’re not going to be regulated. So I think it’s a good thing. It’s constructive progress for both sides.

Jacob: Yeah, and I laugh thinking about we talked earlier, you know, KYC, know your customer well. What if your customer the whole purpose is that they don’t want you to know who they are in this world or something is very funny. But as you say, building that bridge is definitely going to be a very valuable to whoever can do it. As you know, the growth officer, is this the industry you kind of see as the true expansion area and growth possibility area for Somsub ? Or is there other industries or verticals that kind of sit in the same space of having that kind of opportunity for you to really expand your services and break into new areas?

Ilya: For us, it’s a very big focus area, but I’d say every company has their own history. I think what happened with us, because of our global reach and capabilities, we had a very good product market fit with what crypto was looking for. So that’s why we’re working with them. We are believers, especially that we are on the on the compliance side and therefore it makes it more institutional and available to use by border. So I think coming from this side, we are big believers on this. The other verticals for us are traditional financial services, the neobanks, the payment services all the way to traditional banks. So I think we are going actually more from crypto to neobanks to modern financial services to traditional ones, but the service is actually not that different. The service is the same, it’s just that some other companies have started with working with banks. For example, if you’re working with a bank or tailored to a very local solution, a very local regulator, and they are going to trying to cover more regions and more businesses, we are going the other way. But I think we are definitely believers in crypto and it’s, you know, institutionalization and we want to help that happen.

Jacob: Yeah, makes perfect sense. The final thing I want to ask you about then I referenced earlier is a kind of a recent news story that I felt like you’d be a perfect person to ask about. And it has to do with the most trendy topic in the world right now, which is AI, which, you know, everyone’s talking about impacts how they’re going to impact their lives, their business, their industry, whatever. Everyone’s talking about it everywhere. But the story that I found fascinating was had to do with verification, and it was a story about how someone had given ChatGPT this task. I forget what exactly the task was, but it was complicated and the point of it was for it to fail at this task. And during its attempt to do this ChatGPT, the bot ran into a reCAPTCHA verification screen and wasn’t able to prove that it was human. But instead of stopping and just failing, it found a way to work around it and it went. I don’t know if it was Craigslist or where, but it went, posted a job, hired a human, convinced that human. No, no, no, no, no. Like I’m also a human. I just for some reason can’t do this. They had some elaborate way. They hired a human to do the reCAPTCHA for them so then they could continue. And I believe that was also when they were running GPT 3.5. It wasn’t even like the newest model. So that like caught my eye of like, okay, that was it was one of those inflection moments of like, Oh, the AI’s getting a little smarter. Like that’s another one of those little kind of Turing test type things of like, that’s a leap I wouldn’t have said it could make. And now it clearly can do when you see something like that, that an AI can overcome these verification tools that are meant to be stopped robots from getting passed. What’s your reaction to that and how do you in some sub kind of approach combating the threats and workarounds that AI is going to offer into this space?

Ilya: First of all, as I said, it’s a constant sort of tug of war and there is no silver bullet. And the way I think you have to think about this, obviously what you described is a fascinating but it’s sort of a controlled experiment, right? If you’re talking about mass verifications and I’m not sure it would work, but it’s fascinating that it could do that. The way we think about this is you have to just use many, many different tools around the whole process. So when we do the onboarding, it’s not just. About reading the document and comparing the face and say it’s written here that it’s John. Right. But we do the whole suite of different checks. You know, you check their emails. Is it a newly created email or has it been around? Is it registered the various services? So then you know that it’s respectable. You know, you can trust an email. Same thing with phone. Then you look at the device people are using, where are they coming from, their IP addresses. Are they using VPNs? How are they using it? There are actually a million signals that go around this process that is actually just, you know, don’t see it. Right. But as I mentioned, remember, we can rank we can risk rate the transaction of onboarding. And a lot of times you would probably be able to catch some of this behavior elsewhere, not because they might ask the caption, but you will have caught them somewhere else.

Ilya: And because on the other side, on the side of fraudsters, they have tremendous resources. It’s organizations are very smart people with with lots of money and technical capabilities. So that’s why I’m saying that it’s it’s never a service that anybody should try to do within their company by themselves because they will be super limited to their own use case and their problems that they see but not benefit from us. Seeing the same problems comes to 200 or 200 countries in 2000 clients. So it’s going to be a ever evolving process. And by the way, look, nothing is 100% bulletproof. You know, even if people come with a document to a real bank to identify a person, they can still fool people. In fact, I think it’s it’s becoming harder to fool processes like ours because actually we are able to automatically do 100 times more checks than a human person, you know, in a bank. And they will just look at a paper document and that’s all they can do. So it’s just investing the solid time. Yes, he thinks the peer then you think about us. Like as I mentioned, deepfakes is a big new thing. You know, it’s very easy to create a deepfake. You know, I’ve seen this many times when we do tests for customers or demos, it looks very real. And unless you put around many other things to detect the potential fraudster, then they might slip through.

Jacob: Yeah, it’s definitely fascinating times, but I like that you referenced I think a lot of people sometimes get just like to, you know, find a reason to be upset with technology in their everyday lives and thinking about like, Oh, I’ve got to do this verification or do this check, this thing and everything, and remembering that it used to be a lot easier. It actually is getting a lot harder to get past all of these things. And the idea that these are such an inconvenience to us, but way before technology, it was difficult. But I watched maybe too many movies, but it was pretty easy to go in and like trick Yeah, the person in person versus nowadays. everything you’re offering is actually making it incredibly more difficult and kind of fighting against these new, these new things that are popping up, but kind of remembering that as a consumer or as a business owner, that perfection isn’t possible and it certainly never was a thing in the past. So not acting like it was the last thing, I’ll just follow up then. It does sound like before with the crypto, you use the bridge analogy and have building that bridge being so valuable as again, the person in charge of growth at Sumsub. I got through that answer from you that you are someone that looks at this more optimistically or more as an opportunity than anything else of there may be some new things within the world of AI that’s going to cause me to have to build new things to put in that tool kit. So are you looking at it more as this is an opportunity for us to continue to be on the front lines of figuring out how to deal with the new thing that pops up.

Ilya: So definitely we use the AI all the time, AI and machine learning, and so it’s actually a big help to us. We can use these tools a lot of times to aid us in doing this work. So we’re actually big for it, makes our life, you know, helps us, but at the same time it actually makes the service more valuable. If we were just finding some really primitive fraudsters that we wouldn’t be in business. You know, actually when it becomes more complex, it makes our service actually much more valuable and determine later on who is good at this and who is somebody who just wants to do it but are not able to because it will take a lot of resources, a lot of knowledge, a lot of investment, a lot of human capital investment into being good at this.

Jacob: Yeah, expertise in flexibility will win the day for sure. So, Ilya, this has been really great to get to learn from you and about you. For those listening who might want to follow you or Sumsub, keep up with what you’ve got going on, Where would be the best place for them to go to do so?

Ilya: Our website is great. We have a great YouTube channel in which we actually publish a lot of interesting material that you should definitely check out short videos or long videos about how fraudsters work, about how you can implement in your daily life some of the things not to be fooled, but we got well first I think it’s fascinating viewing. Yeah. So follow us. And if you have any questions, do get in touch. We’ll be happy to answer.

Jacob: Fantastic. And I will second the YouTube channel. I definitely was spent more time on there than I expected to when doing a little research to get prepared for this interview. So definitely recommend that and we’ll of course link to that and everything else in the show notes below. So Ilya, thank you so much for your time and knowledge. It’s been a real pleasure. Hope to speak with you again sometime soon.

Ilya: Thank you so much.

Jacob: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, head on over to SoarPay.com/podcast to subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice. That’s S – O – A – R – P – A – Y -.COM/Podcast