PayFac-as-a-Service and the Evolving Payments Landscape with Caleb Avery of Tilled | Soar Payments LLC
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Caleb Avery of Tilled; PayFac-as-a-Service

PayFac-as-a-Service and the Evolving Payments Landscape with Caleb Avery of Tilled

Do payment facilitators really make life easier when it comes to transactions? In this episode of PayPod, host Jacob Hollabaugh sits down with Caleb Avery of Tilled to discuss PayFac as a service and how It’s revolutionizing the payments industry. Tilled was created to empower software vendors, marketplaces, and SaaS companies to start generating revenue from accepting credit cards. So why wait? Listen now and join us exploring the future of payments and fintech.

Payments & Fintech Insights In This Episode

  • It’s all about PayFac
  • Integrating eCommerce into your website to enable payments
  • How to monetize payments for SMBs
  • What makes Tilled different from other facilitators 
  • Why should a business choose to become a PayFac
  • The trends Caleb sees continue evolving 
  • And much more!

Today’s Guest

Caleb Avery : Tilled

Tilled was created to empower software vendors, marketplaces, and SaaS companies to start generating revenue from accepting credit cards. With their suite of powerful financial tools and industry leading revenue sharing programs, Tilled will power the financial backend of the next generation of marketplaces, SaaS companies, and integrated software vendors allowing them to focus on their core product, not payments. They enable these companies to enjoy all the benefits of a fully registered payment facilitator program without the upfront cost, hassle, or liability. Plug in our easy to implement APIs and start making revenue from credit card processing today. For B2B software companies looking for a better option that provides all of the benefits with none of the hassle, it’s time to Get Tilled and experience Payfac-as-a-Service.

Featured on the Show

About PayPod

PayPod is the leading voice in the payments and fintech industry, covering payments, risk management and new technology. Host Jacob Hollabaugh interviews leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, as they discuss the latest developments in the payments and fintech industry.

Episode Transcript

Jacob: Welcome to PayPod, the Payments Industry Podcast. Each week, we’ll bring you in-depth conversations with leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, from payment processing to risk management and from new technology to entirely new payment types. If you want to know what’s happening in the world of fintech and payments, you’re in the right place. Hello, everyone. Welcome to PayPod. I’m your host, Jacob Hollabaugh. And today on the show we are talking about payment facilitation and how you no matter how big or small a company you might own or be a part of could possibly become your own PayFac or just facilitate your payments in a better way. And as a business owner myself, who knows how much I’m currently paying my pay fac I hear the idea of a lower rate or additional revenue streams or just something working more for me versus for someone else. And I can’t help get a little bit excited and really looking forward to this conversation. Joining me to explore those topics today is Caleb Avery, founder and CEO of Tilled, the PayFAC. As a service company who are empowering companies to monetize their own payments. Caleb, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on the show today. Excited to dive deeper into the world of payment facilitation.

Jacob: Yeah, so are we, which we get the scope of the pod, you know, kind of ebbs and flows within the payments and fintech world. But I always love being able to get really into the nitty gritty of one specific part of the payments chain. And let’s start with just as a little bit of an overview, a reminder with our listeners, we’ve got two kind of diverse group of listeners. There’s plenty that are in the payments world themselves, even leading companies in the payments and fintech world. Many others are, you know, business owners, leaders on the lookout for new financial services technologies that could benefit their business. So for that latter group in particular, to make sure we know exactly what we’re talking about today, could you just explain the role of a PayFac within the payments chain and where they kind of fall in all of that?

Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. So I always like to start out when you’re talking about what is a PayFac for, what does it stand for? We already kind of talked about it a little bit, but, you know, short for payment facilitator. And I think the reality is a lot of people are more familiar with the kind of big PayFac fact, Stripe Square, you know, Braintree, PayPal. But from an SMBs perspective, the payback is typically coming in and filling the role that their ISO or the bank was providing previously, providing them access to the card brands and the ability to accept payments at their business and ultimately receive those payments within their bank account. I think one of the big differences within the PayFac model relative to the traditional ISO ecosystem comes down to the actual way that the accounts configuration is set up for an SMB, where in that payment facilitator model, the pay goes through a very extensive vetting process with the banks, the acquirers, the card brands to get registers what’s considered a master merchant. And the difference there is that once that PayFac is set up in that master merchant relationship, they’re then able to really create a much more streamlined digital, oftentimes instant boarding experience for that SMB, which is typically considered a sub merchant underneath that PayFac versus the traditional ISO ecosystem kind of boarding processes where each SMB is getting their own merchant ID and just going through a much more thorough vetting process.

Jacob: Love that. Thank you for that. And how is that payment facilitation typically been handled within the digital space, specifically kind of in the last decade or so? You’ve mentioned a few of the big players, but who are the big players that people would be familiar with and what have been the kind of evolutions or big changes over the last decade as the digital wave is just we’ve seen, you know, however many ways it’s not just one at this point. It’s just over and over and over, everything growing.

Caleb: I think there’s been a couple of distinct waves of kind of evolution within the payments ecosystem. And the way that I think about it has really been a lot of changes within the way that payments are distributed to SMBs. So how are the average SMB getting access to payment processing where, you know, I started in this industry at 19 years old going door to door, and at that point in time like that was the prevalent distribution model. It was boots on the ground. It was crazy. Folks like myself walking into small businesses, offering them payment processing services or, you know, small business owners were going to their bank where they had their checking account and that’s where they were getting access to their payment solutions. And the reality was there were some advantages to that model, but there was also a lot of friction. And so you saw the early players Stripe Square, Braintree, PayPal coming in and offering this this streamlined, maybe not frictionless, but certainly substantially less friction than the traditional bank ISO model. And so you had this rise of initially more eComm focused payment facilitator Square, obviously with the dongle started to move into the physical space.

Caleb: But the latest wave that I think really has made the payback model more mainstream has been the rise of the vertical software ecosystem, where, look, ten, 15 years ago there weren’t really that many prevalent vertical software platforms, whereas today every single vertical that you can think of, whether it’s trash management solutions or golf course management software or, you know, we’ve got propane delivery softwares like every vertical that you can think of, there is a vertical specific software solution for that. And I think that has been, you know, really one of the bigger shifts that’s happened over the last five years that has changed the way people really think about the. PayFac Model and certainly brought it more into the mainstream where for the majority of these software companies, they start out with Stripe or Braintree because it’s seven lines of code to embed into your platform to add payment solutions. But there’s also a lot of drawbacks, both from the SMB perspective, but primarily from the ISV or software company perspective. There are a lot of drawbacks to that model which led to the opportunity here at Tilled.

Jacob: Yeah. And speaking of that, before we go too much further then, can you give a quick overview of how Tilled came about? You started to get into the story there and then what the services are that you’re offering, how it all works.

Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it really was born through my experience in the in the payments ecosystem. So initially starting door to door, scaling up that business. But over time I started being brought in on consulting opportunities for software companies that were coming to me. Oftentimes with 4 or 500 plus million dollars of payments volume flowing through the platform, but $0 of payments revenue. So they’re coming to me saying like, Hey, isn’t there a way for us to monetize these payments and generate a revenue stream from all of these payments? And, you know, historically, we would recommend gateways like an EMI or Authorize.net and then help them negotiate referral relationships with one of the big ISOs. And practically speaking, the legacy technology and the manual boarding process wasn’t really what these software companies were looking for. And one of those companies came to us saying, Hey, well, what would it take for us to be a PayFac? And a couple months into educating them on all of the upfront costs, the liabilities, the personnel costs, the technology investment? They decided they had no interest in being a payment facilitator themselves. And so for me, the kind of original hypothesis behind Tilled was what would actually have to be true for a vertical software business to leverage the benefits of the PayFac model, but launch in one week. And so that was the kind of original thesis behind Tilled, and that became what we now call payback as a service where companies take our turnkey white label payments infrastructure, embed that within their platform and typically are up and running in a couple of weeks.

Jacob: Wow. Is anyone else doing this or are you kind of like the first of your kind to enter the PayFac as a service model or landscape?

Caleb: We were the ones that came up with the terminology PayFac as a service. And so we introduced the verbiage into the ecosystem. There were other players doing some variation of what we’re doing that have now since adopted the terminology PayFac as a service. I would say Payrix was certainly one of the kind of primary companies that we felt as a competitor, especially prior to their acquisition by FIS. And then Stripe is obviously the £800 gorilla in the ecosystem that we get compared to and most customer conversations, most investor conversations, and frankly, half the podcasts that I do, Stripe comes up in conversation.

Jacob: I’ll do my best not to use them as the example on any other future questions. Feel free. Yeah, well, that’s the easy like one just to reference to keep people’s minds on the thing they know. But yeah, makes sense. All right. Yeah. I actually had wondered then were other companies doing it? But then the big huge companies like that, are they not were they not offering the kind of like white labeled as a service solution? And do you think whether they were or not possibly are going to see like, well, this is, you know, a competitor of ours, We could do that, too. Like we could tweak the model or have that extra channel.

Caleb: I think most of the companies that people, if you’re putting together a competitor matrix, would compare us against. At the time when we came to market, they were really offering more of what I would consider a PayFac in a box solution. And the distinction there being that they were offering the software companies the ability to go become a registered payment facilitator themselves. And so the difference in that model, they took what was historically a two year multi-million dollar process and brought it down to about a six month couple hundred thousand dollar process. And I think what I realized as a consultant trying to recommend these solutions, and I think they realized after a couple of years of their go to market motion, that’s a pretty hard sell to go convince. You know, a company, even if you’re making it a little bit easier and a little bit cheaper, it’s still a lot of work. You’re still hiring a team, you’re still taking on liability. You’re still responsible for all the day to day operations. And then we come to market with this kind of PayFac as a service concept. And it’s all of a sudden, okay, well, this is now what software companies are asking about and wanting. And so we’ve certainly seen several of our competitors pivot more in the direction of offering a payback as a service solution, which I think is ultimately great for the market. And the reality is this is a massive ecosystem.

Caleb: We don’t have the capacity to serve every vertical software platform out there. And so I think it’s been great to see a handful more players. I think when you look at a lot of the larger kind of traditional incumbents, most of the major acquirers are PayFacs themselves and they have not what I would consider a payback as a service solution, but they have an ISV focused solution that’s an API with a console experience targeting ISVs. And the challenge that a lot of them were facing was that it was taking six plus months to go integrate into their. APIs. And so when you’re competing against a solution like Tilled, where we’re at this point, I think we’ve launched, I don’t know, 18 or 19, you know, ISVs so far in the first couple months of the year, and they’ve averaged a nine day integration. And so it’s a night and day experience when you’re saying like at scale, we can launch a company sub two weeks and then they’re out there selling a six, nine, 12 month integration. I think that that can be difficult even if at the end of that long integration they have an instant boarding experience. It’s still a pretty tough value proposition for the ISV to say, Hey, we’re going to go lock up our developer resources for the next two, three, four quarters versus the next two weeks.

Jacob: Yeah. And the end goal is the end value that you’re really bringing then, as I understand it, is that because they can now do this and do it faster again, like you said, there wasn’t really a difference to me when you said it’s a two year process versus a six months. I’m like, that’s still a long term process. I’m right with you of like, it’s not far enough. So then you’re like, Now I can do the two year thing in nine days. The real goal, the end goal is that this adds a revenue stream. They start to be able to capture some of that payments money themselves versus it going somewhere else, correct?

Caleb: Absolutely. I mean, I think certainly the the revenue stream is one of the key benefits. I mean, practically speaking, if you can double your revenue and do that in a matter of months, that’s a pretty attractive value proposition for any business owner to consider. I think a lot of times once these folks realize how much money they’re leaving on the table, it just becomes something that you really can’t ignore. I also think that there’s benefits from your relationship with your customers where oftentimes the kind of step that that folks were taking, they were leaving the likes of Stripe and Braintree and they were going into the ISO referral model and they were really introducing a subpar experience for their customers. Okay. Hey, we’re going to email you a PDF application. Here’s a reporting console that was built in 1997, and the customer support is, you know, a pretty poor experience. And like ultimately that’s not a great reflection on your brand as the vertical software provider and especially as you’re trying to compete against the larger guys, Toast and service Titan and these guys that have taken that step to go become a pay for themselves and are offering great pricing and great experience, integrated reporting, all of that starts to be a competitive disadvantage if you don’t have the right payment strategy as a vertical software platform. And we’re allowing these companies to have all of those benefits as though they were a big company doing it in house, but with substantially less upfront effort and upfront investment.

Jacob: Absolutely. And you’ve explained before why you chose this specific software verticals that you did. Is there any other are you trying to like? Our focus is strictly there. That’s where all of our growth can come from. Or are there other industry types, vertical types that you’re looking at as this was kind of phase one of the first place we wanted to get into. Now we could look at where the other growth opportunities might be. Are there any others you’re considering?

Caleb: Yeah, there’s a couple of things there. I think Thing one, for us, you know, when we started the business, we really started with inbound organic as the way that ISVs and software companies were coming and finding Tilled. And one of the interesting things that that we’ve learned over the last 18 months or so is that a lot of the traditional ISOs, as well as frankly the traditional acquirers, are really eager to get into this category. What we’re talking about, the kind of PayFac ISV ecosystem is far and away the highest growth sector within the payments ecosystem today. And so at this point, we’ve got something close to 150 ISOs that refer ISV business to Tilled. And so that has been a big focus for us over the last 18 months. And certainly, you know, I think is only going to accelerate as more and more ISOs and agents and payments consultants start to realize what this can do for them as individuals in their portfolio, but also the value that they can add to the software companies that they really need help solving this problem. And I think as we have expanded more into that ISO ecosystem and more and more, we’re getting these ISOs and agents that are coming to us and saying, well, hey, why can’t I just board my direct merchant business with you guys? And that’s not something that we’ve historically supported, but certainly something that we’re eager to start supporting, especially as we release, you know, we’ve got a next generation card presence solution coming out. We’re getting ready to release a tap to pay for iPhone and Android. And as you get more and more of those payment acceptance solutions out there in the ecosystem, we still can actually provide a lot of value direct to merchants, not just going through the software partners functioning as that that infrastructure provider. But I think by and large, our real focus is on the ISV and software company ecosystem. That’s the biggest problem that I see in the market. And frankly, the biggest opportunity.

Jacob: Makes perfect sense. Let’s say I’m one of those software business owners and I’ve signed up using one of the big PayFacs. I won’t mention any of the ones that always get mentioned, and we’ve already mentioned multiple times today, but I signed up with one of them at the beginning. You know, it was just the easy thing to. Do get up and running. What are some signs, then, that I should be looking for that tell me. I’m ready to switch to something like a Tilled or I should be considering making that switch and becoming my own PayFac.

Caleb: Absolutely. I certainly think as you start to see your volume ramp up, that’s really one of the first indicators that it’s time to start looking elsewhere. Practically speaking, when you’re just getting started and you’re processing your first payments, you could make 100% of the margin. But if it’s on $0, it doesn’t doesn’t really matter. But as you start hitting five, ten, 25, 50 million a year in payments volume, all of a sudden you’re increasingly leaving more and more money on the table. And I think what we’ve seen with a lot of our partners, they’re coming to us because they’ve tried negotiating with the folks that will remain nameless and oftentimes struggle or they say, hey, we’ll lower your pricing by, you know, ten basis points, but you need to sign a five year exclusive contract with us. And they’re just hesitant to make that change. I also think paying close attention to that customer experience, like are you really getting the experience that you want to drive for your customers, whether that’s onboarding, whether that’s customer support, whether that’s reporting funding times, whatever the key thing is in your business, really paying close attention to that experience and then think three, it would really be technology where I think for a lot of the companies that come to us, they’ve been partnered with Worldpay for years and they keep hearing about things coming up on the roadmap. And lo and behold, those things never materialize on the roadmap. But for them, they’re like, We want tap to pay, we want to add Apple Pay, we want to be kind of on the forefront of the technology coming down the line. And when you’re partnering with some of these legacy providers, it can be harder and harder for your business to really stay on the cutting edge of the technology that’s coming out. Whereas modern players like Tilled and some of the other newer players were just releasing features at a substantially higher velocity than the legacy incumbents that were competing against. And over time, that really starts to become a pretty significant, you know, either competitive advantage or competitive disadvantage, depending on who you’re partnering with.

Jacob: Absolutely. And the beginning of that, you mentioned the size. It makes perfect sense. Of course, there’s a lot more to be worried about or concerned about maybe making those first transactions

Caleb: Finding customers. And Yeah, exactly.

Jacob: But it does beg the question, is there any specific size or scale that makes the most sense to work for you or like a kind of a minimum size or scale where you’re like, if you’re below that, it’s probably the value isn’t actually there as much as if you kind of surpass this threshold. Or is it kind of if you have the resources you’ve been in business the size, you could still be a smaller company, but you’ve got the time and resources, then you might as well add it in.

Caleb: It’s a great question. I think, you know, when we when we first went to market one over two plus years ago, we were typically saying, hey, 50 million a year was the minimum threshold where it really made sense to start looking at solutions like Tilled. But at the time it took months for clients to integrate onto the platform and it was pretty hard to justify a startup spending three months doing anything outside of their core focus of their business. I think practically speaking, as we continue to decrease the time that it takes for partners to integrate, to build that barrier is getting lower and lower to the point where I would bet 20% of our customers today are actually start ups processing their first payments on Tilled. It really just depends on how important that monetization strategy is to your business and your story. And we’re seeing a lot of these start ups coming to us saying, hey, investors are actually telling us that we have to solve this problem before they want to engage with us on a seed round. So there’s not really a minimum threshold to the question about is there kind of a point in time where it makes sense to potentially go become a PayFac? I think that one’s a bit harder to answer in kind of a black and white terms.

Caleb: I think generally speaking, I often say that about 2 billion a year is really the break point where I feel like economically there’s an incremental dollar to be made by going and becoming a registered PayFac. But just because you can make an extra $10,000 a year doesn’t necessarily mean you want to go spend all the time and energy to build all it out and add the additional liabilities and complexities and compliance concerns. I think it’s really an individual decision for for each ISV, where you really need to decide why am I wanting to go become a PayFac? Is it economics, Is it control? Is it my evaluation for the business? And you have to figure out what that break point is for you as an individual business. But kind of rough rule of thumb, that kind of 50 million to 2 billion a year range is essentially a no brainer for them to come to us. And then outside of those, you have to kind of evaluate for yourselves what makes the most sense for for your business.

Jacob: And it’s the total dollars coming through much more than the amount of transactions. It is an impact in any way. If it’s like, Hey, we make 50 million on ten transactions versus we make 50 million on 5000 transactions, is it mostly just the sum of money that’s coming in? That is the real driver there?

Caleb: I would say generally speaking, yes. The volume is the is the primary driver. There’s certainly going to be some some edge cases to the contrary. But the volume and the margin that you’re making are typically kind. The two bigger drivers of when it makes sense to go either consider a Stripe or a Tilledor, you know, an alternative becoming a PayFac yourself.

Jacob: Gotcha. Slight pivot here. We’ve kind of mentioned it a bunch of, you know, the advantages and disadvantages of being the newer, quicker players like yourself versus some of the legacy companies. But there has been this recent trend that you’re obviously a part of a new as a service type of business in the last half decade especially, you know, existed before the word came around. We kind of first heard SaaS and just software. And then in the last half decade it’s anything as a service. And now we’re just starting to say literally everything as a service is just the new kind of buzzword. Niching down, getting great. One specific thing, offering to do that specific thing for as many companies as possible. Do you think that business model is here to stay and going to continue? And specifically kind of in your world, do you expect, as the business owner consolidation possibly on the horizon or continued expansion of this as a service type of model?

Caleb: I don’t know. From my perspective, it’s necessarily either or. It isn’t necessarily speaking one or the other. I think the reality is I expect both the trends to continue or I think you’re going to continue to see the rise in the number of SaaS or as a service solutions because it’s lowering the cost of doing business and it’s allowing companies to do things that traditionally would have been prohibitive for their business. I mean, practically speaking, a vertical software business doing 5 million a year in payments five years ago would never have considered the PayFac model as kind of a viable route for them. But all of a sudden, you know, inter all of the new players and like that, that all of a sudden is something that, you know, is available to businesses at any size and scale. But at the same time, these big guys aren’t going to go down without a fight. And I think as you start to see the valuations falling at the rate that they are, venture capital drying up and frankly, companies starting to run out of funds like that becomes the perfect storm for an M&A cycle.

Caleb: And so I certainly expect over the next 2 to 3 years to see some pretty significant consolidation within the ecosystem. Payments specifically has been, you know, ripe for a decade plus from a consolidation perspective. And so I think it’ll it’ll definitely be interesting to see what the ecosystem looks like a couple of years from now because you’re going to see some big moves by these guys that are realizing like the ground is shifting underneath our feet. The traditional agent ISO distribution model, it’s not going to die overnight, but it is certainly being impacted faster than they necessarily would have expected and is being disrupted by, you know, the vertical SaaS solutions that are really taking the scene by storm. And they’re saying, okay, well, we have to find a solution to this problem. Do we build? Do we buy? Do we partner? And I think those are the conversations that are happening at the executive level, at the board level right now, trying to figure out how do they compete in the new world that’s forming?

Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. And I will say selfishly, as the host of this podcast, the more the better from my point of view, simply for it’s very fun to get to talk to someone like, Oh, PayFac as a service. We haven’t got to speak about that versus the more of those different ones there can be, the better for me to get to learn about more and more little niche parts, different players, different pieces of the chain within the payments world. Final topic to kind of close us out on then. Whenever I have business leaders within the payments world on, I love to ask these two questions to finish related to kind of business and individual success in this world. And I’m especially excited to ask you as someone who a younger leader, but has, as you referenced earlier, spent your entire career within the payments world from, I think you said, 19 onward. So what would you say in all those years, the different companies you’ve interacted with and now all the different many clients you’re interacting with now with Tilled, what would you say are a few key characteristics about a company that stand out as indicators they’re going to be successful within the payments industry?

Caleb: Yeah, I’d say for me, you know, one of the biggest indicators of success are the folks that truly understand and are passionate about the problem that they’re coming out to solve. I get the opportunity to meet with tons of founders, both in the work that I’m doing at Tilled. Also, over the last number of years, I’ve invested in quite a few startups. And so meeting with founders and I really want to start out and understand like, what’s your story? Why are you passionate about this? And like, really, I want to understand the problem that you’re going after and solving. And my experience has been the folks that intimately understand their customers intimately understand the problem that they’re solving, and then are just passionate, you know, beyond belief to go solve that. Problems are the ones that are able to overcome the obstacles and persevere and succeed, certainly.

Jacob: And then for someone newer that might be working in this industry, what are a few personality traits, skills that you think either, you know, helped you find success and get your footing in this world or that would set someone up for success over their career in this world.

Caleb: I’ll go something that I underestimated at the start of my career and has paid tremendous dividends for me over the last couple of years. And that’s really just networking. I didn’t realize how small the payments ecosystem was. And now more than a decade in the in the business, it’s like you go to the Southeast acquirer show or, you know, transact and. Like all of a sudden you’re like, This feels like homecoming. I know thousands of people that are here. And the reality is it’s such a small space that you make friends. You make good connections. People move to different companies over the course of their career. And if you can make a good impression and make good connections that can pay tremendous dividends over the course of your career. And so if you’re a kind of younger person considering coming into the space or someone who just joined the ecosystem, don’t sleep on the value of building out your network within the ecosystem.

Jacob: Love it and be thankful you don’t have to go door to door because also kind of had an internal laugh earlier when you referenced that of like, we’re the last generation that doesn’t think that’s absolutely insane and crazy. The idea of like, yeah, you just your job, you just go around, knock on everyone’s door and then talk to them about your thing, your business or whatever. And now anyone younger than us would be like that. That seems like that person might need some help. Like, I don’t think you’re supposed to do that, are you? So I got a chuckle.

Caleb: Out of my kids are probably not going to be door to door merchant salesman. That’s probably probably not going to.

Jacob: Be their job. We have iPhones now. We don’t know that we need to go door to door as much. It doesn’t quite make as much efficient for the business. Well, Caleb, this has been a great joy to get to speak with you. For those listening who might want to follow you and keep up with what you’ve got going on or Tilled’s got going on, where would be the best place for them to go to do so?

Caleb: Yeah. So if you’re interested in following me. Caleb Avery LinkedIn is certainly the best place to follow me. Learn more about the PayFac model, my evolving golf swing, my kids just follow along the entrepreneurial journey. If you want to follow more about Tilled, certainly Tilled on LinkedIn is a great place to go. Our website’s also incredibly informative. We’ve got a great blog, tons of resources and a lot of content to help get you started.

Jacob: Love it. We will of course, link to those in more all in the show notes. Caleb, thank you for giving us your time and knowledge. It’s been a real pleasure. Hope to speak to you again sometime soon.

Caleb: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on the show today. This was a blast.

Jacob: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, head on over to Soarpay.com/podcast to subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice. That’s s o a r p a y Dot com slash podcast.