Why Mobile Apps are the Present and Future of Commerce with Campbell Paton of StoreLab

Are you looking for ways to take your e-commerce business to the next level? In this episode of PayPod, host Jacob Hollabaugh sits down with Campbell Paton of StoreLab to discuss how mobile apps offer higher retention rates and a better user experience. StoreLab is a tech company that specializes in mobile app development platforms for e-commerce retailers and brands. Watch this episode for a fun and interesting dive into this latest development in payments and fintech. 

Payments & Fintech Insights In This Episode

Today’s Guest

Campbell Paton : StoreLab

StoreLab is a tech company that specialises in mobile app development platforms for e-commerce retailers and brands. They make it easy for you to build beautiful, native apps that engage customers and drive sales. With StoreLab, you can create an app in minutes without any coding required. Their intuitive visual interface lets you drag and drop your way to a custom app that looks and feels like your own website. They’re committed to making mobile commerce simple and easy for everyone, so you can focus on what you do best: selling products online.

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About PayPod

PayPod is the leading voice in the payments and fintech industry, covering payments, risk management and new technology. Host Jacob Hollabaugh interviews leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, as they discuss the latest developments in the payments and fintech industry.

Episode Transcript

Jacob: Welcome to PayPod, the Payments Industry podcast. Each week, we’ll bring you in-depth conversations with leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world from payment processing to risk management and from new technology to entirely new payment types. If you want to know what’s happening in the world of fintech and payments, you’re in the right place. Hello, everyone. Welcome to PayPod. I’m your host, Jacob Hollabaugh. And today on the show we are talking about where merchants meet their customers within the ever changing digital landscape of commerce. It was once just the default that all that mattered was getting some digital storefront, any kind, anywhere, any platform or marketplace that you could be a part of. You just wanted to get there, have that point of access for your customers. Nowadays, though, there’s a growing argument for not just having any old digital storefront, but having your own digital storefront that you own house within your company’s very own mobile app. Here to help us discuss the validity of this argument and mobile apps in general is a true expert on the matter. We’ve got Campbell Paton, co-founder of StoreLab, the company making it easy for you to build beautiful native apps that engage customers and drive sales. No coding experience required. Campbell, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Campbell: Jacob, thank you. Lovely introduction.

Jacob: Yes, Absolute pleasure to have you. Let’s kick things off by starting kind of high level and asking the question I’m more or less just did in that intro, which is why a mobile app, what’s the benefit to the merchant? What’s the argument for having a mobile app that should convince a merchant that it’s a necessary thing to do?

Campbell: Sure. What we say. There are three key reasons why any e-commerce business should pursue mobile commerce. And when I say mobile commerce, I don’t just mean having a mobile optimized website. I’m talking obviously about having a mobile application that puts a home screen icon on your customer’s phone. The first reason is push notifications. So by having a mobile app, you unlock push notifications and they are why we describe as a slightly uncharted space in terms of digital marketing. My background personally is I used to run a social media agency and then I was commercial director for the largest social media agency in the UK, and we specialized in doing performance marketing for brands. So sending out ads and getting conversions, push notifications are what I would describe as how the Facebook ad space was seven years ago. So I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t use the word unregulated because that’s not right. But it’s before the iOS 14 updates. And in the heyday of social ads, you were getting very high conversion rates and getting very high open rates. So push notifications have the highest conversion rates of any marketing communication on the planet. Today. They convert nine times better than SMS. They convert three times better than email. So you have a and they’re also free to send. So while one of the reasons I left social marketing was because it didn’t sit right with me that we were just handing Meta or Facebook a huge chunk of money and they have here one of the lowest ethics rates of any company on the planet.

Campbell: Here you have a more powerful marketing channel that is converts higher and also is free to send. So for that reason alone, app commerce should be considered by anyone in the e-commerce business. So push notifications are the main reason for me. But then the other two that we talk about, one is retention. By having access to your customers in their pockets in a very easy, reachable place by using app, exclusive content app, exclusive discounts. We have seen customers triple their retention rate within 30 days just by yeah, utilizing good push notifications. And then the third reason is down to experience and I don’t mean experience from a it’s a better sort of end user experience. I mean experience from a technical perspective. It is a general fact of e-commerce and has been known for a long time that faster websites convert better mobile apps are three times on average about three times faster than mobile web. So if you put all of those things together, the retention, the push notifications and the experience side of things, you have a much higher conversion rate through an app than you do through mobile web.

Jacob: Fascinating. Yeah. There’s a lot I want to follow up on within that and we’ll touch on a few of them as we go here. Before I hit those follow ups, though, let’s back up for one second maybe where I should have started before we dove into why they’re so valuable right now today. When did mobile apps first become a thing? And like not just when did they first ever become a thing is interesting, but then also when did they first become something that was accessible to more than just the giant enterprises out there? And kind of what types of businesses or industries led the adoption of some of the things you’re discussing now?

Campbell: Sure. Well, I mean, the app ecommerce world started on sort of January 9th in 2007 when Steve Jobs went on stage and showed the iPhone for the first time. And there’s that very famous video of him scrolling on the phone and everyone’s losing their minds at the smoothness of the transition. As soon as a smartphone came out and they launched the App store a few months later, that is when app commerce became a thing. Originally it was more about in-app purchases. So Flappy Bird and buying things through the. Itunes store, but the barrier to entry for ecommerce for a long time has been who is willing to make the initial investment in terms of development. So from a on the average cost of developing an app before the no code wave happened was around about $55,000. So you would have to hire a team and that’s $55,000 at the low end. So you’d hire a team who would then scope the thing for you. You have to then develop it over a period of 9 to 18 months. There would then be iterations. You then have to have a team that would constantly upkeep it. So the barrier to entry was quite high with no code movement and the sort of rise of the self-service platforms like Wix, Squarespace, Shopify, all of those, you build it yourself. You don’t need to have a developer. That’s what sort of started the view of what my company does where we make a no code solution so you don’t have to go down that massive development cost and the upkeep costs and the time delay, 18 months. We can have an app with our business and we’re not the only people doing this. But yeah, you can have an app ready in a few weeks. So that’s how it’s sort of become more accessible for everyone and that’s where it started.

Jacob: Yeah, and we’ve already led into it there. So can you go ahead and just give us the full overview of StoreLab, who you are, how it came about, and just kind of the services that you offer.

Campbell: Sure. So as I’ve described, StoreLab is a platform where you can build a e-commerce mobile app for your Shopify store and soon to be Wix and Squarespace and all those stores to within a matter of days, really, you can start designing the app in a matter of minutes. And then the actual delay is getting your app live is not on our side. It’s to apply for your developer accounts through Apple and Android, the sort of a two week process on either side in for to get approval from them. But yeah so we make a platform we have sort of two main packages, a do it yourself package where you can come and build it yourself and run it, manage it and be really successful. And then a managed service where we have account managers who will build the app for you and manage the push notifications as it is in marketing channel, do all of the upkeep to keep it fresh and your products, new products and interesting and all of those things on the app moving forward. So that’s sort of what we do.

Jacob: Very cool. And you work. So right now you’re working with only those who have a Shopify store. I know you mentioned in the future that might be more than just that, but I do wonder, I know the answer to this is big, whatever it is, maybe you don’t know the exact number, but what is like the market size of Shopify stores right now? Like how many Shopify stores exist out there right now?

Campbell: So worldwide, I can’t tell you. I can tell you that 33.1 million Shopify stores in the US, there’s 184,000. In the UK there’s about 80,000. In Canada there is 60,000 in Australia. So Shopify has the biggest market share of the e-commerce space currently behind that, not by well behind that sort of being nipping at their heels is WooCommerce, which is the second biggest, which has about 2.2 million in the US, about 120,000 in the UK. So the reason that we chose Shopify first is because they were the largest and the easiest to connect to. But on the horizon for us as a business is conquering WooCommerce and Squarespace and Wix and all of those rest of those two.

Jacob: Yeah, and essentially, I’d guess even maybe beyond that, trying to get to a place where you could do this for anyone out there, let alone whatever platform they’re on, if they’re even on a platform, anything like that.

Campbell: That is exactly.

Jacob: Right. Love it.

Campbell: January next year for those updates.

Jacob: Amazing. We’ll have you back to do that. So you referenced in the history of all this, the big change that knocked down that barrier to entry where before it was this huge cost, this huge time outlay. So it made sense that it was only the huge, massive enterprise companies that were like, we can actually give that investment. We have plenty to go around versus your mom and pop store or your person in their bedroom who’s created a merchandise store and whatnot, all that. They didn’t have that to do. The thing that changed everything was the low code and ultimately no code kind of revolution. We’re in the middle of across all kinds of industries and all kinds of different tools to use. Everything you offer is a no code solution, meaning you make it super easy for anyone to build. You don’t need a developer on your team, anything like that. How important was it to get to that no code solution? Was it this truly never possible before then? And would also you kind of I think you might have made this comparison a little bit in one of your earlier answers, but would I be correct in using a comparison that you’re somewhat doing for mobile apps, what a company like a Squarespace, among others, did for websites within the last decade?

Campbell: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s it’s all to us about the barrier to entry and we celebrate working with any company size and the best case studies that or say the best the ones that mean the most to me are the mom and pop. All the lady could tell a great story. There’s a lady that we love called Edbia who runs a.

Jacob: Watched her video, I think, actually.

Campbell: Oh, lovely.

Jacob: Planning for this. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Campbell: She runs a multi-million dollar business out of her bedroom. And it started in Covid times and has grown. But it’s still all her. She does it all herself. She wasn’t hugely convinced of an app, but we managed to talk around to it and within her first month we were selling sort of $50,000 worth of product through her app. We’re having a much higher conversion rate than through her website, and now the statistics are just fantastic. She has a two times higher average order value, three times higher purchases through the mobile app. So yeah, it’s such a good one. We do work for the big companies as well, but the smaller people really are the ones that mean the most to me.

Jacob: Yeah, certainly. And it’s, it’s really awesome and kind of wild and crazy times that we live in that it was so quick of knocking down those barriers didn’t just mean that like, oh, now before only the biggest companies and you knock down those barriers and in some other realms of the world, you knocked down a barrier and it’s like, okay, we let in like the next 10 or 20% of size companies. But like in this respect, with no code options, it’s truly everyone can now take part in it. Even a person who has, like you’ve said and said store. I started a merch store out of my bedroom. I’m a teenager. Whatever. Like you can have this now too, all the way up to the big company and down and it’s really it’s a really cool time to live in with that kind of opportunity for everyone.

Campbell: There’s another one I’d like to briefly mention if I can. There’s a company called Rock Those Curves. They are plus Size fashion store based out of the UK. When we first met their founder, she was still working at a different job. This was a side hustle to her. She wasn’t making a huge amount of money. And when we originally spoke to her, one of our do it yourself package is $80 a month. It’s not hugely expensive, but she was concerned that it was going to be too expensive for her. So that should sort of tell you about how much revenue that she was making at the time. Since now and then we’ve made about $350,000. So this has gone from being a sort of side hustle and dream to this is her full time job. She’s working 50 hours a day, seeing the excitement that she gets through all of the sales that are coming through her app and just the growth of her business is I wouldn’t say solely down to us because it’s not entirely. She’s done a huge amount of work too, but definitely the acquisition of customers has been solely through us and that is really exciting.

Jacob: It’s really fantastic. So you mentioned before the two different options. You offer the full do it yourself. We’ve got a platform. It’s no code. Anyone can figure it out and do it and put it together versus the kind of done for you. Can you explain a little on the done for you side? What all goes into that? What the like kind of next steps beyond just building the platform are that you’re able to assist with?

Campbell: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean building, building the app is the first step to it. And it’s like any other marketing channel that you’ve ever worked with it if you get out of it, what you put in. So if you were to just build a Shopify store or a Wix store and then leave it on the side, it wouldn’t make you much revenue. There is a lot of work that goes in beyond the building of it. So the things that we really help with are, number one, organizing your products and your sort of marketing messages on the app and making sure that we’re keeping the content fresh and that the usage remains high. And then from an ongoing basis that the real big part is to push notifications. So push notifications are a marketing channel just like any other. They require scheduling iterations and above all, testing. Like any digital marketing, channel testing and iteration is the most important thing. So it is testing times of day cadence, number of setting the week, the messaging, the language, the products, all of those sort of things, then forming a base strategy around that and then iterating and making it better. So and then providing reporting and analytics on the back of that too, like you would expect with email marketing or social marketing or Google advertising. All of those things push notifications are no different. So the coupling of those push notifications, as well as keeping the app content fresh is what we would say is the majority of our ongoing service. But then we also do have quite a bit of e-commerce, I’d say, knowledge from speaking to hundreds of companies about it. So we do sort of help with that stuff to more of an advisory basis. But yeah, that’s what we do. The ongoing bit with.

Jacob: The notifications, like what types can you give me some examples, like what types of notifications you’re sending out.

Campbell: Okay. So from the platform you can send, so text based notifications or rich notifications, but also so rich notifications are notifications with an image. So you can send someone a, Hey, look at this new new shoe that we have in store, or have a look at this t-shirt or have a discount code for this product or we’ve got a big sale coming up. I mean, the biggest event in our year is Black Friday. Christmas and everything else. And you want to create some buzz around the sales that are coming up. So you do a lot of pre Black Friday messaging. But the most important one and by far the most important type of message is the automated messages. So these are messages that you’re sending based on interactions. So this would be a look to the products and get a message. This would be engagement, product based messages, but by far the highest converting message that you will ever want to receive in all of those things is the abandoned cart push. Station. So an abandoned cart push notification. Yeah. Is exactly what it says when someone adds something to the basket or begins the checkout. And the thing that I usually say to anyone that’s thinking about sort of commerce and whether it’s viable abandon cart. Push notifications can recover 40% of your abandoned checkouts. So if you looked at your your analytics for your e-commerce store and you looked at the number of people that abandoned your basket and you said how much more revenue would we make if we got 40% of those back? It’s usually enough to make them go, okay, we’ll give this a try. And yeah, so those are sort of the types of notifications that we send.

Jacob: Yeah. And the power of the abandoned cart one specifically is not lost on me or probably most of the listeners at this point because we with the kind of payments focus of the podcast, more often than not, we talk to a lot of folks who are working on checkout experiences in different ways and every single time I always and try to hammer home and I’m always blown away, even though I know it, by the number of like how big the abandoned cart space is and like how often that really happens that some people can only think through their experience as a consumer and be like, Well, I never do that. So that can’t actually be a thing. And then you find out it is a very big thing and as you say it, because it’s much bigger than you might think. Capturing as big as 40% of that back is a big, big shift and a big, big influx of cash and sales for a business. So that is definitely super powerful.

Campbell: Also comes down to the experience Parts two of commerce, the making that checkout process as fast as possible and having the app loading times way faster than the web loading times. All of those things together are the reasons that you get such high conversion rates with mobile apps compared to mobile web

Jacob: Certainly, and you’re in control of your own ecosystem as well. At the end of the day, if you if there is something a friction point at during that checkout or whatever, you’re no longer at the whims of how Shopify or how Stripe or whoever you run your thing, your everything through, whoever you run your website through, they’re probably passing down this is the the payments process, the checkout process that we utilize and that therefore you have to utilize. Now you’re in your own ecosystem where if you see something and want to make a change, you want to add something in. I assume that’s something they can then go about actually doing, which is another powerful tool to be totally in control.

Campbell: Very, very much so, yeah.

Jacob: So you recently did a great had a great blog post that I enjoyed reading in preparation for this, the seven P’s of App success. And we’ve throughout this conversation already mentioned many of the things that are within that post. I’ll link to the entire post in the show notes below. So anyone listening that wants to read the entire thing can absolutely go do so. But I was wondering if you could share a few pieces of insight on what goes into building a high converting app. Anything that we haven’t already mentioned with this in this conversation that is a really instrumental step in building an app that is going to be high converting.

Campbell: So we try and make it as easy as possible. The parameters around design on an app are guess much easier than that of a website because there’s much less screen real estate. So in terms of where it might take you a long time to design every aspect of a website within the app, we have from experience limited the things that you can do so that you have a clean experience. So within the planning and design of your app mean we encourage anyone to spend as much time as they want on the design elements, but within that it doesn’t really take much for you to recreate your website in a clean, user friendly way, as most stores are anyway, to be honest, but on a device. So from the key aspects of planning, the keep it simple stupid is is a really easy one. Less is so much more on a mobile device, less screen is screen less data and you want to make your content as thumb stopping as possible. So you want that to be as large as possible on the screen. So there’s only so many elements you can have at one time. We as a rule of thumb to say less than three elements on the screen at one time. And then from there, the design side is relatively straightforward from a sort of planning and publishing point. As long as you factor in the setup costs for doing it with the Apple and Android, which are not large, I mean, Apple is the largest in cost you $100 a year to have a developer account and just factor in time into that too.

Campbell: There’s like I said, there’s a two week process on either side of you setting up or launching. But probably the most important key that we talk about is when it comes down to the testing, the prospering, the iteration that you have to do on learning, which push notifications are successful and testing those, iterating them, launching them, looking at the analytics, coming back, maybe just be my background from the performance marketing side. But testing is the most important thing in any e-commerce journey. Test everything and record it and then look at the analytics and then reiterate and test again. There’s a 70 2010 rule that we talk about from an aspect of budgeting and don’t mean budgeting just in terms of money, mean budgeting and time too. So 70% of your time and resources should go towards stuff that you know works and is your baseline 20% of your time or in resources should go to testing already converting audience with something new and 10% should go to testing completely new things to new people. If you take that methodology and you use that with app commerce and essentially push notifications and use that on a monthly basis, you really start to see that the conversion rates tick up.

Jacob: Yeah, love that. And I was smiling there throughout the end part, as some listeners may know, a reference to from time to time. My wife is a digital marketer, runs a big digital marketing ad agency. And so I’ve heard the rule you’re explaining before many a times or overheard it being discussed many times with different calls and things. So I was getting a kick out of seeing those worlds collide a little there. And I really like what you started that answer off with and was the one that stuck out the most in when I read through that article on keeping it simple in the fact that it’s helpful for you even to limit the options for the person so they can’t. I, I know from personal experience I have done this with a couple of Shopify stores I’ve built before or websites I’ve built, and I’m sure I would be inclined to do so with an app. But you get in there and between either you wanting something to be perfect or overthinking it, or maybe the fear of actually launching it. And so subconsciously, like we can just work on it a little more, we can add this page, this will be amazing. We’ll add this like this banner isn’t perfect, this. And it’s like, No, no, no, no, no, no. You don’t need to take all the time because almost a lot of that might not ever matter. A person’s coming is only going to interact with so much. You don’t need to build 17 different pages and all this different copy and all this and that and yeah, keeping it simple. So I like that you help folks from themselves a little bit, folks like me that might get in there and be like, okay, let me really let me take a couple months and design this really pinpoint perfectly every little thing and it’s all ends up kind of being unnecessary. So I really like that.

Campbell: Uncluttered. Uncluttered is the main thing, certainly.

Jacob: Let’s pivot one final time to a couple of trend related questions to get you out of here. On the first of which I know I asked earlier about kind of Shopify market size and you gave us breakdowns of some of the Shopify and others kind of their market size. But when looking at kind of the entire mobile market within eCommerce, how big roughly, obviously I’m sure you don’t have an exact number on that, but you know, kind of roughly how big or where is that market right now in the transition to e-commerce being a very mobile driven world? And where do you see that kind of market share going in that trend continuing or not into the future?

Campbell: The number that we liked or that we’ve seen and talk about is currently there’s a company called Airship that does a lot of work on on planning and sort of surveying. They say that mobile commerce accounts for 46% of global commerce. So that’s just. That’s not just e-commerce, that’s global commerce. So that’s 46% of you’re adding e-commerce there as well as in-store commerce. So and last year it was 42. In the year before that, I think it was 41. So the growth in mobile commerce is just accelerating. And it makes sense because as smartphones become more accessible, as they become cheaper, more people are using their phones and to an extent the platforms or the phone companies and others themselves are trying to get people to stay away from using mobile web. If you look at the developments in sort of app clips and Google instant apps, as much as that hasn’t necessarily taken off in the last 18 months, the platforms are trying to do things to get people to spend more time off the browsers and using apps that are on their phones. So in my the reason well, one of the reasons we’re doing what we’re doing is because we just see that sort of acceleration continuing and less people using their desktops. People are spending much more time on Instagram and the other social networks, and then you’re going to look at stores and purchasing through them through the mobile apps. And by having an app experience, it just puts something in someone’s pocket that you can then reach them at a much easier way than having to send them an email and all a Facebook ad or an Instagram ad.

Jacob: Yeah, love it. And final thing, then taking that question and answer and looking even further into the future, then the next iteration, if websites were kind of all the rage once upon a time, now it’s very much mobile apps and I’m kind of blown away by the 46%. That’s I knew it was big and I knew it was growing. And that’s even bigger than I would have really realized. And that’s pretty, pretty fascinating. So definitely validates mobile is the kind of the all the rage right now. What do you think if you have any thoughts on what some future next iteration might look like? Or do you think this version of mobile is kind of here to stay for the foreseeable future? Do you possibly have any like any of the new technologies that are coming out that you’re looking at as the next wave of where things may be or where merchants may need to eventually meet their customer base at?

Campbell: Well, from a sort of blue sky thinking perspective, there’s been all the augmented reality and virtual reality sort of bits in the news recently. I wonder if we will look back and the Steve Jobs scrolling on his phone will become the Apple’s new headsets. And when you have augmented reality that isn’t just trying to get a piece of furniture and sort of looking at it in situ in your room, whether that will actually be useful is trying on clothes and those sort of things. I can see that happening, but I still think we’re quite a long way from from there yet in terms of app development and mobile, not not hugely. I mean, think from a feature perspective, mobile phones have sort of slowed down in terms of doing some wacky stuff. The biggest development I think, over the last couple of years is maybe having a folding phone.

Jacob: Which we’ve tried before and in many different ways. And hasn’t really worked, many maybe at all. So we’ll see.

Campbell: If things have started. You know, they’ve got smaller and then they got bigger and then they sort of maintain the size. So in terms.

Jacob: Of the static point with them, yeah.

Campbell: Yeah. Unless it’s something augmented reality wise, like Google glasses that don’t make you look like an idiot when you’re wearing them or Yeah, something like the aura or Yeah. Don’t see there being huge, huge changes at least the next five years.

Jacob: Yeah. Mostly with you and I. Yeah. Did ask that. I’m glad you went to where I was attempting to kind of lead you a little there of apps within more of a metaverse type of future but would still be similar app but just having to be able to be in a on within a different platform and that being kind of the next wave of I agree with you, it’s very static at this point in what’s needed and the no, the no code revolution that we talked about before. Now that it’s here, that was kind of the last big horizon to unlock. What I would say is the full potential of a mobile phone device as we know it now. And now it’s just continuing to iterate or play in that sandbox, but we kind of have the whole thing. And so while I don’t think it will be in the next three, five years or whatnot, I did. I’m glad you referenced the newest Apple launch as potentially Apple has a history of being the one that when they enter, whether it’s their product or not, that ends up being the number one dominant product when they enter is kind of the moment everyone else looks around and says, This is a serious thing. Now this can actually be a thing. And so I definitely think there might be a future where your company is helping you build an app that not only goes in your phone, but maybe goes in your vision pro or whatever their goggles are called, or hopefully, yeah, a future version that looks a little cooler and doesn’t burn your head.

Campbell: We’re definitely looking at it when it’s released. We will as a company, buy a few and then see what we can do in terms of developing an app for it. But it’s all about accessibility, right? I mean, the reason it’s 46% is. Because you can get a smartphone for less than $100. You’re going to have to get to the point where you can get a VR headset or an AR headset that’s going to be less than that and provide the experience that.

Jacob: Yeah, which is a very, very long ways away. Maybe not for where I’m in the States, but the reason the big thing behind the access isn’t just in one specific spot for mobile phones. It’s globally, worldwide. And we have a lot of guests on talking about doing things within some of those emerging markets and where it is all mobile based because that is the easy access that no matter what the no matter where you are in the world now, you’re more or less going to have access potentially to at least get that device and be able to connect that device to the rest of the world. And that’s certainly not changing with any new technology anytime soon. Maybe in a small localized place, a country here, a country there, but not globally, certainly. So, Campbell. This has been an absolute blast For those listening who may want to follow you, learn more about StoreLab, maybe look into actually building their own or having you help them build their own mobile app. Keep up with all of you and the company you have going on. Where would be the best place for them to go to do so?

Campbell: So you can find us at StoreLab.app, which is our web address. You can find me on LinkedIn, Campbell Paton or on Instagram at Campbell Paton.

Jacob: Wonderful. We will link to those in more in the show notes below, including that article we referenced earlier on. This has been absolutely awesome. Thank you so much for your time and knowledge. Campbell have greatly enjoyed it and hope to speak again sometime soon.

Campbell: Thanks very much, Jacob. I will say one last thing. I do have a book called Out coming out in August called The App Revolution, which will explain a little bit more about how app started and how you can get involved.

Jacob: Yeah. Is there is that possibly up for like pre-order or anything of that nature by now that we could link to or no

Campbell: No, no. Currently we’re just sorting out the, the cover art at the moment and but once that’s ready. Yeah but August will be the time. It’s, it’s fully published.

Jacob: Wonderful. Well then even more reason to go follow along on LinkedIn company and Campbell himself so that when that is released you can go get yourself a copy. Thank you so much, Campbell. We’ll do it again sometime soon.

Campbell: Thank you. Jacob. Speak to you soon.

Jacob: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more. Head on over to SoarPay.com/podcast to subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice. That’s s o a r p a y.com/podcast.