Process Automation and Alignment with Michael Heffner of Appian

Our Guest: Process Automation Journey of Michael Heffner!

Michael Heffner, currently the Vice President of multiple divisions within Appian Corporation, boasts a rich background in the financial industry, having served as a managing director at a capital markets firm before joining Appian. He played a pivotal role in standing up Appian’s financial services industry practice. Michael’s journey with Appian dates back to 2014 when he joined the company as a customer, eventually becoming an integral part of the team. His decision to transition to Appian was rooted in the company’s rich history, innovative technology, and a culture he deeply connected with.

In the rapidly evolving landscape of process automation, Michael brings a wealth of experience to Appian. As a guest on the Pay Pod podcast, he shares insights into Appian’s AI process automation platform, which aids major global companies in optimizing their operations. Michael highlights Appian’s commitment to helping clients navigate the challenges of integrating new technologies with legacy systems, emphasizing the importance of delivering innovation and improved services to customers. With his extensive industry knowledge, Michael plays a key role in steering Appian toward addressing the complex needs of large institutions across various sectors.

Michael’s expertise extends to Appian’s recognition as a leader in the Gartner Magic Quadrant, particularly in business process automation with integration. He delves into the significance of low-code application development within the platform, making it more accessible and efficient for clients. Michael’s current role involves leading the initiative of Appian Select, a program focused on deepening alignment and partnerships with key customers. His passion lies in creating value for customers and helping them articulate the benefits of Appian’s solutions in their unique contexts. Michael is also excited about new trends, such as the adoption of AI and the move towards digital assets, where Appian is poised to play a crucial role.

Episode Transcript

Michael Heffner: We will use our technology to actually integrate with the data and its origin at its source, and then create a bidirectional connection to that data. That is data fabric. And then being able to unify the relevant data by a data fabric, almost like a story, almost like an epic, is a critical differentiator of our technology. Think about it as the nouns and verbs of data, the nouns or entities like the customer, the location, and the verbs are what you do with the data. You underwrite the loan, you onboard the customer, or off board the customer. You update a service’s record, unifying both the nouns and the verbs into a single architecture that you then orchestrate without having to create intermediate lakes or layers. That’s really powerful, and that’s what our customers have really responded to.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Welcome to PayPad, the payments industry podcast. Each week, we’ll bring you in-depth conversations with leaders who are shaping the payments and fintech world, from payment processing to risk management, and from new technology to entirely new payment types. If you want to know what’s happening in the world of fintech and payments, you’re in the right place. Hello everyone, and welcome to Pay Pod. I’m your host, Jacob Hollabaugh. Today on the show, we’re diving into the world of process automation, talking about why you should be doing as much of this as possible, a bit about how you could be doing it, and generally speaking, looking at where the financial industry and beyond are at in learning and adapting to the tools of today. I’ve got the great fortune of speaking with Michael Heffner, vice president of multiple divisions within Appian Corporation, the software company that accelerates your business by discovering, designing and optimizing critical processes from start to finish. Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Michael Heffner: Yeah. Thank you, Jacob. Thrilled to be here on PayPod. My pleasure.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Thrilled to have you. The pleasure is all mine. If we could start here, Mich, take me back in time for a minute. Back in 2014. What was it about Appian that attracted you to wanting to work there and led to you joining the company?

Michael Heffner: Jacob, I really appreciate that question. Yeah, I’m happy to go back to the start and I’ll actually jump even before my joining the company. So, Appian was founded in 1999. We’re constantly reinventing ourselves, but there’s a lot of history. There’s a lot of legacy there. There’s a lot of great knowledge there. And even when I joined the company, I joined as a customer, a previous customer. So my exposure actually goes two years before my hire date, when I was, part of a team that purchased Appian. And even back then, the company was different, the technology was different. And the culture, I really connected with the culture. So, Appian had asked me to stand up, our financial services industry practice, I, at the time was a managing director at a capital markets firm. I said, why would I go join a software company? There’s no way. But they kept calling and I kept thinking. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought about my career trajectory, my personal trajectory being all about growth and innovation. And the more I thought about it, the more Appian made sense.

Jacob Hollabaugh: It’s definitely the field. And it’s impressive to here in this world, outside of some of the big institutions like banks and things, it’s, to be from 1999 to 2023 and still around and successful in the automation game, the process automation game, it does mean, you could say you had to change a lot. But we all know listening or talking to you that ye in that timeline you doing what you do, you would have had to reiterate, reiterate, reiterate and change quite a lot because obviously, that is, the timeline of all the technological advancement that very much is part of what you do. So can you give an overview then of today in 2023, who Appian is, what services you offer, and who you’re typically working with?

Michael Heffner: Absolutely, totally appreciate that question as well. We’re an AI process automation platform, and what that means in real terms is we help some of the biggest companies in the world really optimize the way they work. And that really? Takes, multiple dimensions. But who we work with, I think is really important. We, generally, focus on large institutions. So the global 2000, we also focus on some core industries, although we do work across all industries, but there are a couple of industries that are very crucial and tend to be those that are highly regulated, like financial services, like insurance, public sector, like pharma, life sciences as well. But we also do a lot of work in supply chain manufacturing, etc. If you think about, the business that we’re in, which is process automation, depending on which analysts you talk to, the global Tam in the next couple of years is something like 80, somewhere between 60 to 80 billion. We really focus on our customers and that’s our priority. So when we think about our potential universe of customers, we’re maybe engaging about 10%. So we see a lot of upside, and we continue to see a lot of innovation and transition. Our customers are, operating across a spectrum of maturity, and we can help them, regardless of where they are in that spectrum.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah. That leads me right to then, where they kind of are at in that spectrum. But really stepping back and looking at the industry as a whole, where are we, given the number, the total addressable market, which I knew it would be a very large number? And it is and it makes total sense. Where are we kind of in the arc of learning to do process automation a lot better across kind of the commercial spectrum? Are you coming across a lot of big companies that are still like, not doing any of it and need you to come in and start from scratch and really get them caught up? Have we at least gotten to a point where most of the bigger companies you’re interacting with are at least doing some of it, and you’re going to hopefully help them do it better? What’s kind of the overall market outlook? Where are we in the adoption phase? As again, it was kind of funny when you started with, you’re an AI. The first words were AI company. And in my head, I was like, that definitely wasn’t the case in 1999. So speaking of all those iterations, I don’t think we used that quite then. But where is the market overall in going towards these best practices?

Michael Heffner: It’s a great question. And it’s really a mixed story. And quite honestly, I feel for our customers because most of our customers don’t have the latitude just starting over and Greenfielding their business. Some do and we can help them with that as well. But most are dealing with decisions around architecture that were made decades ago. And how do you make how do you make the elephant dance? It’s really the challenge. And how do you integrate and orchestrate the level of complexity that exists in these companies today and then unify that with trying to innovate, trying to do something differentiated, maybe integrating, cool new idea or fintech? So that’s a challenge that everyone is facing. Some are just further along, with that challenge, obviously, you nailed it. We’ve been doing, AI versions of AI for a while, but, we’re finding ourselves we’re having this discussion here at the end of 23. What happened in Q1 of 23 was quite remarkable, seeing the killer app finally emerging. And that’s created a lot of buzz and excitement, but also a lot of anxiety. So, we’re continuously seeing the technology landscape evolve. And part of what we’re doing and actually part of our mission is to orchestrate change. So how do you, elegantly, integrate the old with the new? And then ultimately, the focus has to be delivering, innovation, new products, and better service to your customer. Customers really what this should all be about.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah. And part of that integration, one of the things that I really liked and kind of researched and exploring what all your company had to offer was that your platform that you run everything through allows a lot of low code application development. And when you’re working with these systems that have this legacy system build-up and infrastructure and trying to help ease the transition towards the future, they know they need to be a part of. But it is really complicated the ability to offer folks within their company, not just you on the outside, coming in and doing it for them, but offer them their own developer’s low code options, I would think is, it’s come up a lot on this podcast in the last year of low code options being kind of the easy entry point in the way to integrate really really well with some legacy systems. How impactful is being able to offer that type of development? And even like, no code tools, low code tools. How impactful and important are those to your offering?

Michael Heffner: It’s really a big deal. So it’s for us it’s again about business outcomes. And, low code is a means to an end. And I’ll describe that a little bit. If I take sort of a jump back and lean into my, history of studying business and economics, what’s really happening here? What are some of the macroeconomic factors at play? And I think at the end of the day, the observation that software is eating the world and, true differentiation of corporate differentiation is going to come through software. We’re living that right? I mean, my local furniture store advertising a software program that allows customers to understand what mattress to buy. That software. Right? That’s a vendor furniture trying to differentiate themselves through customer-facing software. And you see it everywhere, right? The software really is the way modern companies are differentiating themselves in the marketplace. The problem with that is it’s incredibly complex to build software the old way. Right. And very often when you do, it takes a long time and you end up building single-purpose applications that have to coexist in an ecosystem but really don’t what you’re doing is you’re building islands to themselves that have their own user experience or their own, integrations and way of working. And what that’s leading to in the modern, complex bank, for example, is a manifestation of a massive backlog. We’re just not graduating enough engineers to develop against the software demand that’s being driven by business demand that’s leading to an increase in backlog. And that’s a challenge for every CIO out there. Right? How do I deal with this backlog? And how do I deal with the fact that I just can’t source enough talent? We’re just not, graduating enough engineers. So something has to give. Right? And I think the thing that you’re seeing that you’re speaking to with low code is what has to give. It’s got to get easier to build applications. And that’s what the low code piece is all about. However, they need to actually result in meaningful applications that actually have a valuable business impact. And then address multiple dimensions of the challenge, which include the backlog.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah. Makes total sense. We not only don’t have enough but then the way to solve that problem. Yes, we would love to be able to graduate more folks who can do it, but instead, we can also say the ones who are doing it. We need you to do it so well that you can pass it to the internal members of companies to be able to make it without them having to be engineers and everything else. So one other thing that I saw, in a bunch of places on your website, on LinkedIn postings, and whatnot, that I have to ask because I’m not familiar with and maybe the listeners aren’t either, is I saw you were listed as a leader in the Gartner Magic Quadrant, and it seemed like a pretty big deal, rated number one in a lot of the use cases. And I am not familiar with, what that would be. So can you tell me what Gartner Magic Quadrant is how your low code capabilities are scored and how that all kind of works?

Michael Heffner: Ye 100%. I’m happy to talk about that. And Magic Quadrant sounds a little bit.

Jacob Hollabaugh: It sounds impressive. I have to say, no matter what, whatever it is, it seems cool and impressive and it seems to mean you’re doing a very good job.

Michael Heffner: I will say it’s a really big deal. And actually appreciate all of the firms that are in the ratings business because they’re such an important asset to the buyers out there. Because even that topic of low code, right? We’re the first company to go public with the title low code. But since then there’s over 300 technologies by the last count that are using the phrase low code.

Jacob Hollabaugh: We’ve talked to a few of them on the show. Yeah like I said, hard to come up a lot.

Michael Heffner: That’s right. I mean, it’s easy to do. Ye yeah. We’re low code.

Jacob Hollabaugh: But what defines low?

Michael Heffner: So the challenge here is as a buyer of technology, if all you did is surf company websites, it could get really confusing really quickly. And all of the differentiation sort of coalesces and it’s very different, kind of difficult to figure out. That’s where Gartner, Forrester, even Everest Group come into play because they can help guide the buyer. Ultimately, the final buying decision is still usually tied to a very important process of diligence. And we understand that these are not investment decisions firms should take lightly. But Gartner, for example, will be, I liken it to a root canal. Right? Their level of diligence to understand our capabilities, our vision. They speak to our customers, they speak to our engineers. They understand exactly what our capabilities are. So for us to be able to rank, very highly and even number one, under business process automation with integration, which is really at the complexity level of the rating scale, is we’re proud of that. And quite honestly, It’s something we work towards. Now we don’t work towards the rating. We work towards the impact to our customers. That manifests in the rating. But ye it’s a big deal. it’s important and we don’t take them lightly. And we’re very grateful for all the work that Appian is doing and that our customers are doing to get us ranked appropriately.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah. It’s the best type of testimonial you can get. And I agree with you wholeheartedly that the company is doing that kind of work, such a benefit to the industries that they are judging and grading and rating and, do a lot of the heavy lifting for some of the companies that don’t have to overtax their marketing teams and things and selling teams when it can be said. And we’ve got someone out here who’s really drilling into this, the root canal, as you said, and is giving you the actual rundown of how this all works, how well it should be if you should trust it or not. So that’s fantastic. Another kind of trend that is it’s beyond a trend. I wish I had a different word for it when a trend becomes just something I have to talk about in every episode, because this which is data in general, you within your platform, you have the data fabric portion that seems quite critical. And yet like I said, data topics frequent these days, every episode at this point of PayPod, where do you feel like we’re at in the commercial world at large, in kind of adopting better data practices and overall understanding of the power of data, being able to do things like unifying your data in one place, getting out of all the silos, which is one of the things your data fabric does when you go to these big enterprises, where do you feel like they’re at? And their understanding of this really the driver of business these days, is being able to bring all of our data into one place, actually analyze it, and find proper use cases to leverage it and use it to their benefit?

Michael Heffner: It’s a fantastic question. I think it’s mixed. The answer is mixed. And I think there’s a collective understanding of how important data is. But I think firms are also really challenged with how to deal with it. Because data is everywhere. There’s no shortage of data. It’s a massive data. And data comes with, especially in our highly regulated industries, comes with very serious responsibilities as well as integrity, how the data is used, the regulatory scrutiny around, PPI and GDPR, and all of those other mandates. It’s just incredibly important. But it’s also incredibly complex. Now, one of the things you mentioned, I’m actually going to disagree with slightly, and I hope you like give me that latitude. This idea of having to centralize your data before you can work with it has been around for a long time, right? But there’s also fallacy there because it’s sort of assuming, “Oh! I just need to put it somewhere like, come up like whatever, and then it’s going to be good and then I can work with it.” It’s always, sort of this two-step. First, we have to get it somewhere and then we can work with it. What we do different and this at the core of our technology, and we’ve adopted the phrase data fabric because that’s where the industry nomenclature is gone. But it’s something we’ve called records for years. And it’s really core to our capabilities. I think of it as a virtualized data architecture. And what’s so important about it is we actually leave the data in the core systems where the data should reside. If you have a golden copy for customer, if you have a core data store for your product, the core data store for your transactions, just don’t extract it from that. We will use our technology to actually integrate with the data at its origin, at its source, and then create a bidirectional connection to that data, that is data fabric. And then being able to unify the relevant data via data fabric into almost like a story, almost like an epic, that you then have the ability to take action on, is really what what I think, and we believe at our core is a critical differentiator of our technology. Think about it as one of our founders uses this analogy and I love it. It’s still the nouns and verbs of data. So the nouns are the entities like the customer, the location that even the loan. right? The verbs are what you do with the data, right? You onboard the customer,  offboard the customer. You update a service’s records. So unifying both the nouns and the verbs into a single architecture that you then orchestrate without having to create intermediate lakes or layers, that’s really powerful. And that’s what our customers have really responded to. And that’s very core to our architecture. So it’s not process or data. It’s the unification of those and then the orchestration of all the work that goes along with that. It’s a really powerful proposition. And it’s one that is at the heart of what we do. We’re very open from a philosophy perspective and architecture perspective. So this idea that we will lock in a customer because we have their data is, is something we’ve never understood. As a core principle for us, its data is an asset leverage the asset were addressed. And then just put it in context of a verb of an action.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah. Love that and that analogy is really fantastic. I’d never thought of it that way, but it makes explaining it and working with it, I would imagine to much much easier. So I’ll definitely be thinking about that and using that in the future, the nouns and verbs of data. I really like that. Let’s switch gears slightly here for a moment. And you’ve got a lot of roles that you’ve been taking on within Appian, and one of the newest ones, I believe, led to believe one of your newest ones is you’re now leading a team in creating and launching Appian Select, which is kind of customer-facing portion of the company. Can you tell me a bit about what this new initiative is and how, if I have my dates correct, maybe about a year into since like announcement, So what the kind of goals of this is, what this initiative is, and how the first year, the first little bit of time here has gone?

Michael Heffner: Yeah, absolutely happy to. And My latest role is not on my LinkedIn yet. And I’ll talk about that later.

Jacob Hollabaugh: They’re gonna, they’re gonna run out. They’re just going to say he does all of them.

Michael Heffner: No. Well you know what it is. It’s where we’re constantly refocusing, reinventing, rethinking. And the culturally, even though we keep growing, we’re now over 2000 employees, our culture is still rooted in small elite teams doing great work. So we sort of lean in always on new ideas and innovation. And it’s just it leads to us wearing lots of hats. But we’re focused on those hats, which is I feel like I couldn’t be prouder of. I had the opportunity to write the strategy for, it’s essentially, It’s putting the customer at the center of an all-Appian motion. So it’s not an engineering motion. It’s not a marketing motion, not a services motion, not a sales motion. It’s everyone and Appian focusing on these customers. Now all customers are important and we care about every one of our customers. However, in our core industries, there are some customers where we’re just perfectly aligned with their mission. And we have an opportunity to really partner. That word partner is really it’s interesting, right? Because it means different things to different people. And we actually started with asking our customers, how can we become better partners. You have lots of vendors and service providers, but what’s a partner and how do we get there? Right? Because we care about your journey. And we want to support you in your journey. And those were really eye-opening discussions. And those have led us to initiate a couple of things which we’re still very in the first year, a couple of practices around things that we can do to really create alignment with our customers and help them innovate. So Appian Days, the opportunity to, we launched as part of this and customer advisory council, where we create an opportunity to have much deeper engagement with these customers and then give them an opportunity to network as well, which is really important. We will also create, and we continue to do so opportunities really invest in our customers. And that takes different forms that could, specific services engagement, etc. But one of the things we’re doing is we’re trying to make sure that we have great alignment. And these aren’t like sales things. These are true alignment, executive to executive, with these with these customers. So we’ve gone through a process of creating an ambassador program. So we’ve taken executives out of Appian that in their day job coming back to the hats, maybe we’re a different hat. like our CFO, for example, he’s one of our ambassadors. But really figuring out how do we create sort of an affinity and an alignment. Not  CFO to CFO necessarily, but maybe CFO to finance director at a big bank. They speak the same language. And how do we create an affinity? So we create that closer connection and shared experience that allows us to then figure out what else can we do to partner. There’s been really good uptake. One of the things we’re doing internally, to support that program is we’ve created pods, support pods. So multifunctional groups represented the marketing, engineering, etc. And all focused on these customers.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah, that’s really fantastic. And I can only imagine the eagerness and how these premier customers that you’re working with, the response from them, I can only imagine is over the moon because when you’re working with companies and enterprises of that scale and size, these partnerships and integrations are big, big, big decisions with a lot of impact. And so for you to take the time to, like, we’re going to build this other program to make sure we really are in lockstep together. We understand each other. We really have that deep relationship is going to lead to a lot of success, I think, for both sides.

Michael Heffner: And it’s really important to think about this as it has to come through proof points. Right? It has to come through those moments of truth where we’re really engaging in the right way. It’s funny that you actually found that. Because you probably wouldn’t find anything about app and select on our website because we haven’t really launched it publicly. We’re not making a big deal about it. we’re trying to align ourselves internally to the mission of our customers and then making sure we’re connected to that and where we’re enabling and supporting it. So less big bank marketing push, more actually showing up and moving the needle, sometimes in small ways, sometimes in bigger ways, and then evaluating how we’re doing not over a quarter, but over multiple years.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah, I love that. And for those an enterprise of that size, they’re bringing you in to essentially be a part of them. So the fact that you are taking the lead of like we want to be aligned with you first, not this “What we do. Would you like it?” But this what you’re trying to do “We’re in line with that and we can help you do that.” So actually truly being that part of their company, the way they’re actually looking for.

Michael Heffner: I’m sorry, I’ll just go a little deeper. I’m pretty fascinated about this. Part of this we think about, these enterprises, these monoliths, big banks, 150,000 employees global, we think about them as singular entities. They are often highly fragmented, and they’re made up of people and people that are passionate about trying to drive change and innovating. We try to connect with those leaders, those change leaders. And that’s not always a title, right? That could just be someone that has a future-focused outlook. And we help them. We try to help them create a voice and visibility internally. Because you would likely not be shocked because you know this, how often there’s something really good happening over here, in the group, has no idea. And they’re in the same company. They all wearing the same badge. So how do you create that kind of visibility and alignment? And that’s something fairly simple but really high impact that we can help do as well.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah, has a lot of power once everyone is able to be much more connected like that. Let’s change tunes kind of one last time here. And I’ll get you out on two of my favorite questions to ask most of the guests that come on the show. The first one is especially with all of the many different hats you continue to put on and try on here I’m very interested to hear your answer to these questions. What trend are within the industry or just otherwise in general, what trend are you most focused on staying on top of or in front of going into 2024? What has you most kind of top of mind thinking, “We’ve got to make sure that we’re at the front lines of this”?

Michael Heffner: Yeah. And clearly, for us, it’s the new ISO standards that are coming out for digital payments in particular. I think we have a really powerful answer and role to play on payment investigations cross-border. We’re working closely with a number of banks. Swift move towards, a central counterparty I think is interesting. so we’re seeing some interesting things already rolling out. We’re partnering and there are also a customer with GSS, specifically, around the next generation of payment sanction screening. I think there’s some really interesting work happening there with Notarium and a couple other really disruptive innovators, and we’re part of that. So sponsored by the Wolfsberg Group. So a number of big banks coming together and really saying, how do we innovate payments and then how do we make sure that we’re taking advantage of next-gen technologies, but doing it in such a way that we’re meeting all the regulatory mandates. So that’s really exciting to us. And GSS is about to go live in Q1 with the first bank in South Africa, I believe, and, Appian is part of that architecture where we’re doing all the workflow and the orchestration along with a couple other key innovative technologies. So I think that trend is going to continue this whole idea of how do we really rethink payments investigation. The other one I’m really interested in just personally because I think it’s a really fascinating space. And I was invited by one of our customers to actually be on a panel at Sibos in Toronto just a few months ago. it was really the tokenization, the move to digital assets, which is very distinct from crypto. And I have to say that every single time because it’s so easy to align the two, but they’re not the same. This idea of using the ledger And being able to tokenize assets and then being able to begin to unify those operating models over time. I think that’s a really exciting future trend that we definitely are a part of and want to be a part of. But there’s a lot of interesting things, but those are the two, you asked me for two.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah, I love that. And then it potentially just to give you the chance to give one more, similar but slightly different question. What is the one thing you personally are just most excited about for the next 12 months, which in our case, being the middle of December here for the year 2024, we can say?

Michael Heffner: Well, this the other thing I just started, which is I’ve been given the latitude to start a value engineering group for Appian. We’re starting very small, small elite team. I’m so excited about this because often our customers actually struggle with the definition of value. They understand where their problem domains are. But it’s often difficult to say, well, what’s the benefit? Because I think right now in our macroeconomic environment, especially in financial services, and this the right thing to do, but there’s a lot of scrutiny around every single investment, right? every dollar spent needs to have a clear, actionable, return time-bound return. We know we can deliver against that but we often have found that our customers have struggled to articulate that value. We can help them with that because we have had exposure over all the history of the company. And we understand the value that app and investment in Appian, or a transformation of an ecosystem that includes Appian can have for our customers. So I’m very excited about this. It’s a new gear. it’s a new functional group for Appian, and I’m excited to start that up. So that’s a personal one. Beyond that for the industry in whole, I think, the movement and the adoption of AI and for us in particular, private AI, which I’m happy to talk to you about if you ever want to invite me back. I’m sure it was really is really exciting, but also terrifying. I think it’s more exciting than terrifying. But there’s a way of actually bridging that. And I think there’s going to be a lot of innovation being driven in that space.

Jacob Hollabaugh: Yeah, I love that. Exciting times and definitely more to discuss. So we will certainly have to have you back for a part two sometime in the new year. Mich, this has been a real pleasure. For those listening who may want to follow you or learn more about the company, keep up with everything that you guys have going on. Where would be the best place for them to go to do so?

Michael Heffner: Yeah, you can find me at heffner@appian.com and then the company at appian.com(appian.com). And we’d love to talk to you about your challenges and help. 

Jacob Hollabaugh: Awesome. We will link to those and more in the show notes below. Michael, thank you so much for your time and knowledge today. I’ve greatly enjoyed it and hope to speak again sometime soon.

Michael Heffner: It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

Jacob Hollabaugh: If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, head on over to soarpay.com/podcast to subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice. That’s soarpay.com/podcast.