Revolutionizing Payments Jodie Kelley on Innovation, AI, and Leadership

Episode Overview

Jodie Kelley, a distinguished leader in the financial services sector, has been at the helm of the Electronic Transactions Association (ETA) as CEO since October 2019. Under her guidance, ETA has championed the evolution of the payments industry, fostering innovation and advocating for policies that support the dynamic fintech landscape. Kelley’s leadership has been instrumental in navigating the complexities of a rapidly changing financial ecosystem, ensuring that ETA remains a pivotal force in shaping the future of electronic transactions.

Before her tenure at ETA, Kelley amassed extensive experience in both legal and corporate arenas. She served as General Counsel and Senior Vice President of Legal Services at the Business Software Alliance (BSA), where she led global legal strategies and compliance initiatives. Her role at BSA involved intricate negotiations and collaborations with international stakeholders, underscoring her adeptness in managing multifaceted legal challenges. Kelley’s legal acumen was further honed during her time as a partner at the law firm Jenner & Block, where she specialized in complex litigation and regulatory matters.

Kelley’s academic credentials are equally impressive. She earned her Juris Doctor from Harvard Law School, a testament to her dedication and intellectual rigor. Her commitment to excellence is evident not only in her professional achievements but also in her advocacy for diversity and inclusion within the fintech sector. Kelley actively mentors emerging leaders and promotes initiatives aimed at fostering a more inclusive industry environment. Her holistic approach to leadership, combining legal expertise with a passion for innovation and equality, continues to inspire and drive progress in the payments industry.

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Episode Transcript

Jodie Kelley: We have a trade show that we host every year in the spring. We bring about 3000 payments professionals together, and as part of that show, we host a program called empower. And it is, you know, a half day of content. So kind of programming.

Kevin Rosenquist: Hey there and welcome to Paypod. Where we bring you conversations with the trailblazers shaping the future of payments and fintech. My name is Kevin Rosenquist. Thanks for listening. If you’re in the payments space, you’ve probably heard of the Electronic Transactions Association or the ETA. They are the leading trade association shaping the future of payments, advocating for innovation, security and a fair regulatory environment. She has a law degree from Harvard and is passionate about advocacy and equality. We talk about a variety of payment industry topics that pertain to everyone in the fintech space. I hope you enjoy it. So please welcome Jodie Kelley. Kelly. So you went to Harvard Law School. You’ve had a very impressive career. What drew you to joining the Electronic Transactions Association? It’s. It’s an interesting move, right?

Jodie Kelley: It is. And it’s quite a mouthful. Electronic.

Kevin Rosenquist: I know, I know. I actually said it and I was fine. And of course, once I hit record, I can’t say it anymore.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. Yeah. So. So what drew me here? So if you look at my career, it is a bit of a non-linear career, right? So I started off, as you note, as a lawyer, I practiced law for 12 years. And what I loved about it was I loved being an advocate. Right. Like, I loved really diving in, understanding something and then, you know, fighting for something I believed in. But then my career kind of like went, you know, through different twists and turns. I went from a law firm to a financial services firm where I was also a lawyer, but like learned about and kind of fell in love with financial services. And then I moved from there to a trade association where I both was the general counsel. So a lawyer, But there I also ran part of that business and kind of discovered that I really I loved both the advocacy part, but I also really loved, like digging into a business and understanding what made an industry tick and how we could help them. And so when the job at Etta came along, I first of all, I discovered a brand new industry that I didn’t even really think about, which is the payments industry. Um, that, as you know, is unbelievably interesting.

Kevin Rosenquist: It is? Yeah.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: Especially now.

Jodie Kelley: Right now. Yeah. Crazy. And so I fell in love with the industry. And so the chance to kind of move away from practicing law at that point and really focus on digging into a fascinating industry, figuring out how we could help it, including through advocacy. So I’m still an advocate. Sure. Um, but but it was what really drew me. And that’s been five years. And let me tell you, I’ve never looked back. It has been the most fun I have ever had.

Kevin Rosenquist: It’s interesting to me because I talked to a lot of people on this show in this payment space, obviously. And I hear I hear a lot of people that just, like, really dig it, you know what I mean? It’s weird. It’s something that doesn’t seem sexy on the outside. But once you kind of dig into it and you see how it all works, you’re like, wow, this is sort of fascinating. Like, and I’m not trying to like, you know, I’m not trying to caress the industry here on my show. But I think it’s interesting how much people are drawn to it.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. Well, I’ve definitely found that right. You meet people in the industry and once people enter they tend not to leave. Right? They may be around. In fact, they frequently move around, but they don’t leave the industry. And I don’t know, for me, and I think for others, it’s a combination of the fact that it’s an industry that really matters. Right. When you think about the payments industry, like we power the economy, right? We really underlie commerce. Commerce is possible because of us. So, you know, the industry is one that really matters in a very macro way to the economy and then in a very micro way, like think about how we go about our days, like we rely on it without thinking about it.

Kevin Rosenquist: Without ever thinking about it.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah, all the time. So it’s a really important industry and it’s a really tech forward industry and really innovative. And as you say, that cycle is really accelerating. So it makes it interesting. There’s nothing stagnant about it. You’re learning every day.

Kevin Rosenquist: That is for sure. Yeah.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. And so I think that combination really does draw people in and then keeps them once it draws them in. So.

Kevin Rosenquist: So you went to Penn State for your undergrad to go Nittany Lions. And what point were you like. You know what I want to I want to do law school. Did you have that plan the whole time or was that something that you kind of came to that conclusion over your course of your four year undergrad?

Jodie Kelley: You know, what’s really funny is I am one of the luckiest people in the world, and in part because when I started college and I started a little late, I worked first and then decided, you know, this is what I wanted to do. Yeah. And when I started college, I started college with the intent of going to law school, which I did. And then it turned out, in retrospect, I had no idea what it meant to be a lawyer.

Kevin Rosenquist: Like I’ve heard that before.

Jodie Kelley: Yes, exactly. And so, you know, it was incredibly lucky in some way that I ended up really kind of enjoying that because, you know, law school is an investment both of time and of money, certainly. And so I kind of got lucky at the front end of my career and, you know, kind of stumbled into something, you know, kind of planned the stumble, but like something that I didn’t, didn’t really fully understand until I was in it.

Kevin Rosenquist: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Where you did you always have sort of an interest in finance or tech or both.

Jodie Kelley: You know not really. I mean you know my interest and the thing that I found about, you know, practicing law early on was my big interest. What was really interesting to me then was, you know, I was a litigator and mostly an appellate litigator. So, you know, so each case was a new industry, right? You’re learning something new every time. And as I said, you know, it involves being a, you know, a passionate advocate. And I really love that learning. I love learning something new. I love, you know, figuring something out. But then once I went, you know, came to financial services and then to this industry. You know, one thing I’ve learned about this industry is you’re never done learning and figuring it out, right? Yeah. It’s so complex. There’s so much to it.

Kevin Rosenquist: There’s so many pieces. Right? There’s so many different pieces that all fit together to create this incredible ecosystem.

Jodie Kelley: It’s remarkable. Yeah. And if you’re on the outside looking in, you have no idea, right? So no, but I love learning. And then once I found tech and then once I found payments, I discovered that this is an incredibly fun thing to learn about.

Kevin Rosenquist: And on that note, I mean, it’s just that it’s rapidly evolving and especially in the last few years, obviously AI is a big deal. Blockchain is a big deal. Is there anything that you’ve seen that’s sort of an underappreciated transformation in the payments space that maybe is not getting the attention of others, of other aspects?

Jodie Kelley: That’s a great question. I mean, I will say the thing that I think underlies a lot of the innovation that we’re seeing that I found really interesting when I first stepped in was, you know, there’s an innovation cycle, I guess I’d call it. And what I mean by that is, you know, you have consumers in particular who are experiencing new payment options, right? Like we whether it’s, you know, whether it’s tap to pay or it’s buy now, pay later or, you know, and they love it, right? They love the choice. They love being able to pay on their phone. They love, you know, and particularly Gen Z. They want it all right. They want all the options and and you know, so innovation meets that demand. And then consumers use it and they love it. And then they want more of it. And then you know you start seeing this kind of accelerating innovation cycle as people learn, you know, how tech can improve their kind of day to day experience. As businesses learn how tech can help them, payments tech can help them, you know, get in business and enhance their businesses. And so as I think about, you know, you rattled off some, I think, important trends. I, you know, Blockchain. You know, I think about how some of these innovations are going to be deployed as consumers and businesses demand, you know, increasingly better while remaining kind of secure transactions. And I think about things like, you know, my car right now when I’m about to run out of gas, which happens to me more often than it should because I don’t pay attention.

Kevin Rosenquist: What is it? Why do people do that? My wife does the same thing.

Jodie Kelley: I just write, and then you’re running late. And then you gotta. Then you gotta find a gas station. And right now my car will tell me and it’ll say. Do you want me to, you know, pull up the map and tell you where the closest gas station is, right? Like the next generation of car, it will not only tell us how to get to the gas station, but you’ll pay directly through your car. Yeah. Like, you won’t have to look for your wallet or your phone. You’ll just get your gas, get back in your car and move on. And you know, and there’s, you know, there’s the internet of things. When you think about how payments will be incorporated in that, you know, like when your laundry, your washing machine runs out of detergent. It’ll order it and it’ll pay for it, and it’ll show up. Right. And so I think there’s all kinds of really interesting innovation we’ll see as we move into the not too distant future that leverages some of these underlying technologies that are really kind of, you know, powering a big transformation.

Kevin Rosenquist: You know, and you kind of touched on something interesting before because we always talk about or you always hear about, oh, you know, AI is changing this web three is changing that, you know, whatever. But really, when it comes down to it, it’s the demand of the consumer. Right. And Gen Z like you to your point about Gen Z having different expectations than, than maybe, you know, my generation, the generation X or, you know, like whatever generation, it’s not just technology fueling this change. It’s also the desires of the consumers, the younger consumers.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. You know, the you can have all the technology in the world if it’s not sort of solving a problem for somebody, you know, it’s you’re not going to see the uptake. But what we’re seeing is, you know, across generations, particularly Gen Z, you know, there’s just not only a desire but an assumption, kind of a demand, right, that the technology kind of meet needs for, you know, better and easier user experiences, you know, with security always under under.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yes. Yeah. They want.

Jodie Kelley: It’s right. They want to pay how they want to pay when they want to pay. Yeah. You know, in the most frictionless way possible.

Kevin Rosenquist: And it’s interesting too, because like I think about, you know, my parents, I talk to my dad and, you know, the idea of the internet of things or any. Like what? Your example of the laundry. He would be like, nope, I don’t want to deal. Don’t want to do that. That’s terrifying. And it’s it’s funny because, like, I think there’s a certain aspect of people that’s like, either they’re scared of the security aspect of having their washing machine order stuff for them or, or the other thing is like they think, oh, it’s just going to make everybody lazy and and not want to do anything for themselves. But what’s interesting about what these technologies are doing is they’re, they’re like taking away the mundane stuff that nobody wants to do anyway. So why? That seems like a no brainer.

Jodie Kelley: I couldn’t agree with you more. Right. And then it frees you up to your point. Yeah. To do things that you’re kind of uniquely situated to do. Like if somebody or something else can, you know, kind of order the detergent, then, then. Terrific. Yeah. Seriously? I don’t have a. Yeah. To be more efficient and to do other things that either we want to do have a little more free time.

Kevin Rosenquist: That’s what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah.

Jodie Kelley: Or that are higher value. Yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Yeah. So you know the ETA plays plays a big role in shaping policy. That’s a big part of what you guys do. What has been the most challenging advocacy effort you’ve faced so far in your five years?

Jodie Kelley: So we’re probably facing this moment, the most challenging environment, public policy environment that I’ve seen since, you know, I stepped into this role five years ago. And I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you a little bit more about what it is. But, you know, if you take a step back, I think it’s fueled in part by the fact that, you know, as you and I have discussed, ours is a complicated industry. Mhm. Um, and, you know, policymakers and I’m talking both federal and state, you know, but policymakers have a million different issues on their plate. Um, most policymakers don’t have technical backgrounds. And look, most, you know, Americans, most people don’t understand the payments industry. This is not unique to policymakers. And so they just don’t understand, you know, how it works. They don’t understand how, you know, changing part of it here affects so many things that are downstream. And, you know, we talked earlier about how, you know, how at some level, people don’t think about it. It just works, right. You know, like, you know, I tap, you know, my card or my phone or I, you know, I use a P2P app to like, send you money to pay you back for the coffee this morning and.

Kevin Rosenquist: You only notice it if it doesn’t work.

Jodie Kelley: Exactly, exactly. And it works, right. So, you know, by and large you just don’t notice. But what that means is, you know, policymakers don’t understand how it works. Think that it’s very simple, right? I think that keeping it going is easy because because it just does. And that’s by design, right? From a user perspective, you shouldn’t have to think about it.

Kevin Rosenquist: Right? Yeah, yeah.

Jodie Kelley: You should see me. But so part of it is just there is this big need for education among policymakers, you know, to really ensure that they understand the industry, how complex it is, how important it is. You just take it for granted, because in the absence of that, you get public policy that gets in the way. And, and, you know, unintended, but still very real. And I’ll give you what I think is the, best, most unfortunate example of that right now. So, um, in the state of Illinois and state legislatures aren’t even full time legislators, right? Most of them are typically in, you know, 4 or 5 months a year. And you know, so, you know, so the need to get to them while you can and educate is particularly acute. But in the state of Illinois, um, they passed a bill, uh, which will prohibit the imposition of interchange. So, you know, like one, one piece of what merchants pay to accept payments. So it prohibits you from charging that on sales tax, excise tax, or on gratuities on tips. It passed, uh, kind of after the session was out and there were no hearings and nobody really engaged about what this would mean or, you know, whether it would even work. And it turns out it doesn’t work. You know, the ecosystem as it’s designed now doesn’t break out, right? You know, taxes or, you know, gratuities. Uh, you know, things are charged based on the total amount of a ticket.

Jodie Kelley: And so, you know something that sounds easy, you know? You know, just simple. Flip a switch. In fact, would require, like, an enormous reprogramming of the system and in one state. Right. And so trying to figure out, you know, what, if somebody from another state, like, bought online from a merchant in Illinois, and what if they returned it later? And what if they returned it? You know, not only is the are the basics like you just couldn’t do it right now and you know, but but even if you could, it just injects like this incredible amount of chaos into the ecosystem. And I’m confident that was unintended. Right. But it kind of goes to show how if, if, you know, we are not fully educating and deeply engaged on these issues, you know, you can find yourself in a place that is that is not only bad for the payments ecosystem, but like bad for consumers who are trying to use their cards in the midst of all this chaos and bad, in particular for small merchants who rely on this to keep their businesses going. And anything that’s disruptive or creates friction or expense is bad for them. And so, you know, that’s a I was going to say a good example. It’s a terrible example. But it’s I think it’s a clear example of how public policy can actually affect the operation of the ecosystem in really fundamental ways. And, you know, if they get it wrong.

Kevin Rosenquist: Well, I spent the majority of my life in Chicago. So I feel the Illinois pain. They don’t think things through often. Just so you know, it’s not just this space.

Jodie Kelley: It’s a great city. Oh, it’s.

Kevin Rosenquist: A wonderful city. I loved my time there. I still love all my sports teams, but, uh, yeah, there’s, uh, not a whole lot of thinking things through when it comes to Illinois politics, that’s for sure.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: So, you know, we talked a little bit about AI, blockchain, other emerging technologies. Is any of this, in your opinion, a little overhyped right now? Like whether it’s crypto, whether it’s blockchain. You know, I mean, you know, I think maybe that doesn’t count just because it is it overhyped. Sure. But does it deserve it? Probably also. Sure. You know what I mean. But what do you think is there anything that you’re like, ah, that’s a bit talked about, that’s talked about a bit too much.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. I think, you know, it’s, it’s interesting and I agree with you, by the way. I think you’re spot on on. I, you know, I think the hype around AI is kind of happening at warp speed, right. Like, yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: It’s intense.

Jodie Kelley: To solve all the world’s problems AI.

Kevin Rosenquist: Or it’s going to blow us up. That’s pretty much where people land.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah, that would be unfortunate.

Kevin Rosenquist: That would that would.

Jodie Kelley: But I agree with you that AI has incredible potential. You know, I think we are at a moment in the AI cycle where we’re feeling our way through. Um, you know, I think over time we’ll be able to leverage AI, uh, way more fully and accomplish a lot. And look, if you look at the payments industry now and the ways in which it uses, you know, what is AI, machine learning, you know, we’re already using it in fraud fighting, for example, and have for a very long time. This is not new. Yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah.

Jodie Kelley: So, you know, so I think that will continue that trajectory of being able to use it. Ours is a highly regulated industry. We’re not going to fling ourselves in and, you know, have some disastrous consequence. But I agree with you. I think it is overhyped at the moment, but I think it is probably deserved, worthy of hype over time. I think it is a technology that is going to make a meaningful difference. Mhm. I think other blockchain technologies you referenced, you know, I think there’s some really interesting ways that the payments industry could deploy blockchain, particularly in kind of discreet areas. You know and I’m thinking of things like you know B2B payments where you can be kind of transmitting. You know, part of the challenge with B2B is kind of the reconciling of the underlying contract and the payments, and I think the blockchain could have some interesting applications there. Yeah, with.

Kevin Rosenquist: Smart contracts and whatnot.

Jodie Kelley: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so again, you know, I think it’s a technology that if we’re kind of harnessing it and deploying it in a thoughtful way, can solve some problems and potentially remittances, you know, cross border. Although truthfully, the biggest challenge there is by design, those are regulatory challenges on both sides of transactions that just slow things down and make them more complicated, but definitely some potential there. And, you know, I think that’s true of other technologies as well. I think crypto is one that a few years ago, like you couldn’t go anywhere without talking about crypto. Oh, it.

Kevin Rosenquist: Was everywhere, remember? I don’t know if you remember a few years ago, the Super Bowl, like every other ad, was a crypto ad.

Jodie Kelley: Yes.

Kevin Rosenquist: And then everything kind of fell apart that following year. But yeah yeah yeah.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. There were a few challenges.

Kevin Rosenquist: Some issues. Yeah, a few issues.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. And I mean, it feels to me like, uh, crypto is kind of settling out in the sense that, um, you know, there are challenges with using it in payments that are real. And I think that, you know, that, unsurprisingly, we have not seen, given those challenges, you know, like some sort of like, you know, earth shattering change, but it’s not going away. Right? And, you know, some people are holding it and some people are finding use cases for it. So, um, I think historically probably overhyped. And now again, like seeing, you know, the application of a technology and saying, is there a place that this can be used to to solve real problems or address real challenges in our ecosystem?

Kevin Rosenquist: Crypto is so fascinating to me. Like just in hosting this podcast, especially because I talk to a lot of people who are really smart financial people. And it’s amazing to me how you can have this one side that is so bullish on crypto and so excited about Bitcoin, and then this other side that thinks it’s just a load of BS. And it’s so crazy because there really isn’t a ton of people in the middle. I feel like at least the ones that I talk to, like most of the people are either like, like hardcore one side or hardcore or the other.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah, I agree with you. And the people are people are quite passionate about it. Yeah they are. They get a little defensive. Yeah, they do, but I actually think you’re seeing kind of a middle right. Crypto is not going away. Right. Yeah for sure. Real holdings and you know but nor is it kind of upending the payments ecosystem nor nor will it.

Kevin Rosenquist: And I had a guest on here once who called. He said that the people who are in love with Bitcoin, it’s just one big cult. I was like, whoa.

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. Well, it’s I mean, it’s interesting because if you look at things.

Jodie Kelley: Like.

Jodie Kelley: You know, some of these, you know, these meme coins, right? That, you know, they come up and then, you know, they suddenly become very valuable. And it’s just because people decide that, you know, they’re going to including ones that were started as a joke. Right? I know, I know, you know. So then that tells you that there is an element in it. I would not say cult, to be clear, but an element in it has value because people get excited and they decide on its value. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: Very true. Yeah. I saw on your LinkedIn page that you advocate for gender equality. And the payments industry is becoming more inclusive with fintech startups and underrepresented founders, at least from what I’ve been talking to with people, it seems like it’s getting better. How does ETA support diversity and what steps do you take because you’re passionate about diversity to help encourage it in the industry?

Jodie Kelley: Yeah, so thank you for asking that. I you know, I am in fact passionate about this. It’s I think it’s a critically important topic And a critically important topic both from, you know, a societal perspective and from a business perspective. Right. Just the range of perspectives and the breadth of perspectives that get brought, you know, to the table to address a challenge or solve a problem. The broader it is, the better it is. Right. And that is and we know that to be true, you know. And there’s, you know, diversity on all all sorts of, um, different planes. And so, you know, I care you know, I and I care about all of it with respect to gender. I, you know, we are moving in the right direction and we’re moving too slowly in the right direction, but we’re moving in the right direction. And, you know, a lot of our members are working hard on the issue, which I truly appreciative of. And we’re supporting as well. So for example, we have a trade show that we host every year in the spring, we bring about 3000 payments professionals together. And as part of that show, we host a program called empower. And it is, you know, a half day of content. So kind of programing around gender issues in payments in particular. And then we match mentors and mentees as part of that program. And so it really is just trying to create opportunities for women. And you know, like we said, you get in the industry and you don’t want to leave. And, you know, we don’t want people who love the industry to leave. And so we want to make sure there are pathways for women to not only enter, but to rise as they move through the industry. Um, we’re really proud of the work we do, and we’re really proud to partner with others. You know, who, who’s and some of whom have a sole focus on on gender equality more broadly and then in payments.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, that’s that’s you’re not wrong for sure. I feel like that, that it’s moving a little slowly and maybe it slowed down a little bit in recent years as well. But uh, hopefully, hopefully we continue to see progress in that realm. It’s kind of sad. We’re still talking about it. If I’m being honest.

Jodie Kelley: It is kind of sad. We’re still talking about it, but I’m heartened by the fact that people are talking about it. And I think the fact that we’re all feeling a little impatient is a good thing, right? It’s like, can we just, like, let’s push this through? Yeah. And, you know, and see where we can get relatively quickly. I think that’s a.

Kevin Rosenquist: You took this role five years ago roughly. Yeah. So shortly after you take the role, a global pandemic hits and you know that that’s a good test. That’s a good test. What did you learn and what did you learn throughout the pandemic and and the following. Well, recession, don’t call it a recession. Um, that kind of think you think will help you prepare for future uncertainties?

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. So, you know, the pandemic, it did hit shortly after I stepped into this role and it hit. I think the global declaration came something like two weeks before maybe three weeks, something like that. Before we were supposed to hold this trade show in Las Vegas with 3000 people, obviously it did not happen given the pandemic. And, you know, you you learn, I think, a lot of lessons when you’re managing through something like that that is, you know, both so unexpected and when it affects not only the industry but it affects, you know, something like our show, which is, you know, you know, a critically important source of value for our members. And, you know, and it not only affects it, it like took it out for, for two years. And, and, you know, I think one of the things that I certainly learned was, you know, and I certainly am not the one to coin this phrase, but, you know, you know, you always take advantage of a good crisis, right? So it’s like this is this is both a real challenge, um, including from a financial perspective, but it’s also an opportunity to take a step back. Right? Like we can’t do the show, right? We can’t, you know. But what? You know, what can we do that matters to our members? And then what can we learn from that as we move forward? Yeah, and you know, the right in the immediate wake of the pandemic, I remember, you know, we were on the phone, obviously with kind of both here in Washington and then in states across the country ensuring that the payments industry was on the list of essential workers who could go into the office if necessary because, you know, payments cannot stop, right? Even if most of us are holed up in our homes.

Kevin Rosenquist: The economy was taking a big enough hit as it was. You don’t need to add that onto it.

Jodie Kelley: Exactly right. Exactly. And there was so much uncertainty. It’s like you just got to make sure that kind of the basics remain in place and remain working. And so I remember this crazy, intense period of just making sure that that was happening and that we were, you know, helping the industry ensure they could keep operating. And then at that pivoted pretty quickly to how we help the industry ensure that businesses and particularly small. Businesses can stay in business during this period. You know, large businesses who already had an online presence can shift to online. We all remember having everything delivered. Some people were microwaving it, if you remember the mail, you know. Right.

Kevin Rosenquist: But I do, I do. Yeah. Spraying it with disinfectant. And yeah.

Jodie Kelley: It’ll be a distant, distant memory. But small businesses. Right. Whoever may not have had an online presence, how do you help them get online quickly so that they can survive? Because people can’t show up in, you know, how do you work to enable things like you remember we were doing buy online, pick up at curb, you know, you know, for a lot of businesses, they didn’t have that kind of that option built in. And so, you know, how do we help as people are figuring out a new way to live their lives and engage in commerce. And, you know, how do we kind of quickly help merchants turn on, you know, these kinds of optionality? And so, you know, it was a really powerful lesson in how critical our industry is. And you know how when it focuses on helping to solve a problem, it can, you know, immediately make a meaningful difference and how we as an organization can help with that. And so, you know, we have since really increased the amount of work we do in the advocacy advocacy space. And it’s in part because we learned, you know, or I certainly learned then, you know, you know, this industry matters. Like, it matters day to day. It certainly matters in a moment of crisis. And so how do we do our part to ensure that we can always be on, you know, always facilitating. And public policy is the primary way that we do that now in addition to broader education. Sure.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Data security. We kind of touched on it a little bit earlier. It’s, you know, with all the advancements, it’s it’s all the advancements are exciting, but it but it also kind of terrifies people sometimes where although like, I talk to people all the time about how, you know, people are like, oh, we really care about our data, do we? Like, we all just kind of hit it off. We agree to everything. We just kind of throw our data all over the place. So maybe it’s not. Maybe we’re maybe we’re all talk when it all comes down to it. But what do you guys see at ETA as far as like what innovations are coming up to ensure data security in this, in this crazy, amazing time of technology advancements?

Jodie Kelley: Yeah. And you know, that that kind of links back to our earlier discussion about AI. You know, look at the always, you know, important security component of what we do and how, you know, our industry invest billions of dollars in ensuring that things are secure. And the bad guys are kind of right there trying to keep up using technology. And, you know, this is a never ending, you know, kind of back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just like literally I think there’s some interesting I think there’s some really interesting technological advances that are going to affect security. Biometrics is obviously one. You know, I’m learning more and more every day about what is unique about people and like what you can leverage in terms of, you know, in terms of identity. We just had a conference. I was talking to a member of Congress who is a physicist. He’s a PhD physicist. And he was talking about the veins in the back of your hand and how those are unique to each individual and how they I no, no kidding. It makes you look bad, right?

Kevin Rosenquist: I didn’t even know that. Yeah, but.

Jodie Kelley: And how that is like a potential source of biometric identity. And he assured me that one of the things they look at is that the blood is moving so that there is no incentive for anybody to cut off your hand, which I would not have thought. I didn’t think of that. Oh.

Kevin Rosenquist: That’s terrifying.

Jodie Kelley: But terrifying. Yeah. But, you know, fascinating that there like, there’s so much work going on around identity, including biometrics but not limited to it that that is going to be crucial. You know, as we continue to ensure, you know, security and, you know, the bad guys continue to try to, you know, to figure out ways to defeat it. Um, you know, that we were talking about AI in one of our member companies was talking about, um, technology that they’re exploring that, um, that allows them not only to recognize my voice, which we know there’s, you know, that is also being deployed, you know, for bad with deepfakes, including invoices. But to be able to measure if I am typically calling my bank, for example, from right here, not only do they hear my voice, but there is a pattern about the way my voice, the way it bounces off of this particular config, particularly configured room that is unique. And so if somebody is using my voice in a different space, that’s different, which I just found, you know, that’s so cool. Yeah. Yeah. So cool. And so like, all this technology that’s going to be deployed right to, to continuously enhance security. Uh, it’s just fascinating. Fascinating.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, that’s an exciting space. Cyber security, because I, you know, I mean, I know that I’ve talked to people in cybersecurity and they, you know, there’s a shortage of people. You know, we talk about that and there’s it’s it’s going so fast that they need more people and more people and more people. Yeah. But it’s also like it’s incredible what they’re, what they’re doing to try to to try to figure out how to keep things safe and how to keep the bad guys away. The bad guys are always going to figure something out. But it is a fascinating space for sure.

Jodie Kelley: And to your point, that’s why you’re going to need to continuously invest in it, including investing in people.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Very good.

Jodie Kelley: Point. This is not going to stop unfortunately.

Kevin Rosenquist: No, no it never has. It never will. Yeah. Yeah. So as a leader in the payments industry, you know, we’ve got a lot of people listen to this show. Maybe they’re, you know, considering, you know, starting something up or or, you know, doing something within fintech. Do you have any advice for, you know, new companies that maybe just thinking about navigating the complex regulatory environment, you know, while still being able to drive innovation?

Jodie Kelley: Yeah, it’s a great question. And it’s an important question because the regulatory environment is complex and getting it wrong can be catastrophic. You know, like you’ve seen the headlines and ours is an industry that’s under attack right now. And you know, the regulators are looking. So I you know, I this is an amazing area to be people should jump in with both feet. But I agree we should be mindful. You know that it’s complex not only from a technical perspective, but it’s complex from a regulatory perspective. And you know, we’re a nonprofit. We’re you know, we offer resources. We have a compliance conference in the fall. It’s coming right up, you know. So, you know, what I would say is like, you know, kind of engage with us and engage with your peers to learn. It is. You know, this is an industry where no one goes it alone, right? Everyone is partnering with others to develop and deliver products to the market. And so like, seek out every opportunity to, you know, to engage and learn from others. And again, both on the technical front and on the regulatory front.

Kevin Rosenquist: What’s the website again?

Jodie Kelley: It’s uh electron electron. Org.org.

Kevin Rosenquist: All right. Well you can also Google Electronic Transactions Association I said it correctly that time. I’m very proud of that. Jody Kelly, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate your time.

Jodie Kelley: Thank you. It was a real pleasure to talk to you.