Simplifying F&I Products in Auto Finance with F&I Sentinel’s Stephen McDaniel

Episode Overview

​Stephen McDaniel is a seasoned expert in the automotive finance and insurance (F&I) sector, boasting a career that seamlessly integrates legal acumen with industry-specific knowledge. He earned his Bachelor of Science degrees in Accounting and Finance from Florida State University between 1994 and 1999, laying a solid foundation for his future endeavors. Following this, he obtained his Doctor degree from Florida State University College of Law from 2002 to 2004, equipping him with the legal expertise that would become central to his career. His professional journey began as a Staff Attorney at the Florida Supreme Court from 2004 to 2006, providing him with invaluable insights into the intricacies of the legal system.

Transitioning into the private sector, McDaniel served as an Attorney at Radey Thomas Yon & Clark, P.A., from 2006 to 2008, where he honed his skills in insurance regulatory matters. He then became a Shareholder and Attorney at Meenan P.A., a role he held from April 2008 to December 2022. During this period, he focused extensively on compliance issues related to F&I products, overseeing the passage and implementation of state laws governing their offering. His work involved close collaboration with some of the largest vehicle finance companies in the United States, assisting them in implementing compliance management systems for F&I product financing. This extensive experience has been instrumental in helping clients navigate the complex regulatory environment associated with these products.

In 2018, McDaniel co-founded F&I Sentinel, where he currently serves as Chief Executive Officer. Under his leadership, the company has emerged as a leader in F&I product compliance management, offering the CITADEL® Compliance Platform, which brings data transparency, efficiency, and automation to F&I product compliance. The platform is trusted by six of the top ten auto lenders in the United States, underscoring its industry significance. McDaniel’s vision and dedication have been pivotal in F&I Sentinel’s recognition, including its inclusion in the Inc. 

Episode Transcript

  Stephen McDaniel: Your financing up to $6,000, whatever the number is, and allowing dealers to sell within that $6,000. So you’re facilitating potentially bad practices if you’re not at least somewhat of a watchdog on what products that you’re financing or allowing the dealer to sell. So with all of that activity getting turned on to these products, so the peace of mind for the lender at first was a very, very big deal just from a compliance perspective.

Kevin Rosenquist: Hey, welcome to Pay Pad, where we bring you conversations with the trailblazers shaping the future of payments and fintech. My name is Kevin Rosenquist. Thanks for listening. My guest today is Stephen McDaniel, CEO of F and AI Sentinel, a company helping the automotive industry simplify compliance and reduce risks with their innovative Citadel platform. We’ll unpack the hidden world of F and G products such as extended warranties, gap insurance, and tire and wheel protection plans. And we explore how compliance shapes the car buying experience. And we’re also going to discuss what he feels is the future of the car buying experience as well as auto financing. So without further ado, please welcome Stephen McDaniel. So I often bring up sports on this show, particularly football. And I saw you graduated from Florida State University, and I don’t know if you’re a fan or not, but I just wanted to give condolences either way. Yeah.

Stephen McDaniel: Thank you. We deserve it. This year was really, really brutal and a lifelong fan grew up in Tallahassee.  you probably can’t see it, but there’s a Bobby Bowden thing over there in the, uh, that I got for my parents for Christmas. So, yeah, this was brutal. To go from a 13 zero regular season to this was tough.

Kevin Rosenquist: I’ve never seen I don’t know if I’ve ever seen anything quite like it where someone was ranked a team that was ranked that high and then had that rough of a season. You know.

Stephen McDaniel: I tell buddies all season long, it’s almost like we had to try to do that. Yeah, I didn’t see any articles about it, like setting a record of a turnaround in the bad sense. But yeah, it was brutal.

Kevin Rosenquist: It had to be up there. Yeah, it was a bummer. So I. Condolences to you. I’m sure next year will be better. It can’t be worse, right?

Stephen McDaniel: It can’t be worse. Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Rosenquist: You got that going for you. All right, well, let’s, uh, let’s let’s move away from football. That’s not why people tuned in.  we’re going to talk about f and f and G products. Right?  we’re going to talk about finance and insurance and all that good stuff. So let’s start here. You know, most people don’t think much about the extras offered at a dealership, like extended warranties or gap insurance and all that kind of stuff. Can you can you sort of talk us through the F and G products that maybe people you know, consumers should think about or maybe often misunderstand?

Stephen McDaniel: Yeah. So, you know, for me, having been around the F and G product industry for most of my professional career, it’s sort of second nature to me. But you’re right, most, most consumers are so focused on the car buying experience. They get into the finance office. It’s almost like, wait, I thought I just got done negotiating. Now I feel like I’m going through another buying process and they, frankly, are probably heard. The adage that auto dealers today are making less and less on the vehicle itself, and dealership revenue is really being generated within the office. So there are swath of products that are available within a dealership. They range from what’s called a gap waiver, which helps the consumer when there’s a total loss on the vehicle to extended warranties. So think transmission blows. Hopefully you’re going to get it repaired under a service contract to help pay for the cost of that tire and wheel didn’t ding. The product industry is very inventive, so it seems like every year there are new products that are being developed and put onto the market for consumers to consider, so it can really get overwhelming in that funny office, because you’re not just dealing with the financing of the vehicle, you’re also dealing with the opportunity to sell you these paper products. I call them, that would cover the vehicle or hopefully your finances in the event of a total loss or something like that. Like California is a prime example. I know we were talking about that before we went on record and a lot of vehicles got destroyed. So a gap waiver will pay the difference between that outstanding balance and the value of the vehicle that Allstate pays the consumer. So broad swaths of products that are available in that office.

Kevin Rosenquist: You founded Sentinel to tackle compliance challenges in auto finance. Was there an aha moment, or is there any sort of realization that made you go, this is a problem I need to solve?

Stephen McDaniel: Yeah, so probably too much information. But uh, my background for like 17 years was regulatory compliance attorney. I started as an attorney in an insurance regulatory law firm here in Tallahassee and Tallahassee. Historically, or Florida as a state, has been a very difficult state for Fannie products. The insurance regulator with hurricanes is very active. So the law firm that I was a partner at, we spent a good portion of our time going from state to state, crafting legislation that would help protect consumers, but would also help the industry have a consistent framework from state to state. So my expertise as a lawyer was how these products were regulated. I had a mentor that had been in that space in law for a very long time. And so I had to carve out a little bit of a niche for myself as an attorney. And so the one spot that I gravitated towards was manufacturers that were creating their own Fannie product programs just happened to be when I was coming up as a younger attorney, that that was the first time when the likes of, like a Toyota, a Nissan was saying, hey, we have warranties on our cars. We should also offer extended warranties. And so those were a lot of my legal clients back when I was practicing law. And fast forward to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau when it was created by Congress in 2010, they started parachuting into captive finance companies. And so a captive finance company is a finance company, just like a Wells Fargo, but they’re within the manufacturer’s brand or org chart, if you will.

Stephen McDaniel: And so when the bureau originally started to look at Fannie products, they saw a lot of problems with how they were being offered, the value being provided to the consumers. And early on in the Bureau’s days, some would even argue today they would tend to want to get big headlines. Right. And so they’re going to go to the everyday names in order to hopefully do enforcement or regulation by enforcement. So they were stopping at Toyota. They were stopping at Nissan. They were stopping at Honda. And they were asking the finance companies within those organizations about these products. And, you know, literally for 30 some odd years, finance companies would say, hey, we’re going to finance the purchase of the vehicle, and then here’s an extra x thousand dollars that you can sell aftermarket products for my products. And historically, dealers were providing back to the lender the finance agreement, all the credit documents. And then the lender would get the first page of the finished product form. These things are 17 pages long. Mhm. And so lenders didn’t know what they were financing. And the bureau quickly caught on to that. And so when they started to ask questions of those captive finance companies, they would, you know, literally go right down the hall because they had an affiliate that offered free products. And so they would ask those finished product affiliates. Hey, we need help answering these questions from a compliance perspective.

Stephen McDaniel: As affiliates would say, well, we got a guy that knows a lot about compliance, and I just happen to be that guy. And so after I had about two captive finance companies come to me saying, hey, we need help here, that’s when the light bulb turned on. And I was like, I think we can create a solution and we can deliver it through technology. And so that was really the founding of Fly Sentinel, that light bulb that clicked on in my mind to say, this is a problem that every lender that’s in the auto finance space is going to have and already has. They just don’t know they have it yet. It was already kind of in their portfolio. And so that lack of visibility, I think is what was prompting the regulator to start, you know, pushing pressure points there. And then as the lenders learned more and more about these products, I think all of the lenders that we work with and most of the lenders in the market are kind of saying, yeah, like we validate that the car we’re financing as the mileage on it that it says it has on. It doesn’t have dents and dings. You know, they’re doing the Carfax reports. And so we also are financing upwards sometimes of 6 or $7000 in free products. We ought to know what we’re financing there. Yeah. So that’s really where it all started.

Kevin Rosenquist: Compliance is something obviously that’s important with all of anything like this. And most people hear it and they either think it’s bureaucratic and boring or scary, but can you kind of speak to the idea of how important compliance is and how you’re able to help with that?

Stephen McDaniel: Sure. So, you know, if you think about it, these products are most profitable when they don’t pay a claim, right? So if you think about it, that’s how this works. I mean, there’s peace of mind that comes with that, just like your homeowner’s policy. You know, you hope you never have to file a claim. You pay that premium for peace of mind.  There’s also been a lot of activity in the dealership space by the Federal Trade Commission, where there are times when the consumer doesn’t know they’re purchasing these products. It’s, you know, it’s packing concept.  so because like a what a gap waiver does is it amends the finance agreement. So for a lender the finance agreement is your agreement. And so now you’re taking on an agreement that has been amended by an fi product that you’ve never seen. So if you really think through that on that gap waiver product, that’s a really big deal that I think most lenders were blind to for years. And so there are plenty of laws in place that regulate these. But making sure that these products are compliant with those laws is super important for a lender. If that product they inherit it really becomes their own. And then the bureau has this power called unfair, deceptive, abusive acts or practices and the ability to prohibit that. And so what they’ve done is they’ve expanded from gap waivers, which is a financial product that becomes the lenders.

Stephen McDaniel: But they’ve also said to lenders, hey, you’re like I said before, your financing up to $6,000, whatever the number is, and allowing dealers to sell within that $6,000. So you’re facilitating potentially bad practices if you’re not at least somewhat of a watchdog on what products that you’re financing or allowing the dealer to sell.  so with all of that activity getting turned on to these products,  I think now we’re seeing state AGS pickups, you know, we’re seeing class action attorneys start to come in. So the peace of mind for the lender at first was a very, very big deal just from a compliance perspective. But the more that we’ve educated lenders on what these products are and what they do and sometimes, sadly, what they don’t do, I think for the lender, they’re saying, well, forget about compliance. We want to do what’s right by our customer. Like if they bought a VSC, what is the likelihood they quit paying on the loan? If that VSC doesn’t perform and they can’t get a new transmission in that car. So compliance is certainly an element, but making sure that they’re doing the right thing by their consumers, I think, is really starting to resonate with lenders now that they know what they’re financing. Yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: And when you piggyback off of that, is it tough to ensure compliance and also promote fairness and transparency and all that? But also obviously the dealerships you don’t want to take away from their revenue either. Is it difficult to maintain that balance? Yeah.

Stephen McDaniel: So I don’t think it is. So my background prior to law school, I was an accountant auditor read financial statements for forever. So I come at it with a little bit of a business background, but also a regulatory compliance background. And we tell product companies, we tell lenders, we tell dealerships there is money to be made in this industry, but also doing it correctly. And it’s very short sighted to not do it correctly, because if there is money to be made and it’s not being done correctly, that door can get It closed. And so our goal is to say, okay, what’s fair and what’s right. You know, early on in the life cycle of our company, there was an instance where these gap waivers were being sold, but they have caps on them or exclusions. So if your loan to value ratio on your car was in excess of a certain percentage gap waivers used to not pay a claim. So what was happening is consumers were being sold a gap waiver on a deal that violated that cap on day one. So there is no benefit from day one to if they total their car. So that’s not good for the dealerships. And most dealer principals that I talked to, and we engage with dealers on a regular basis.

Stephen McDaniel: They don’t want that either. They want the consumer happy because they want them to come back three years from now, whatever it is, to buy another vehicle.  and if you think about it, if the consumer is happy with the dealership experience, they’re going to come back there to have that warranty claim serviced. The dealers make money on the repair as well. Right. So yeah, there’s a lot of profitability in this industry and in this product. And, you know, our goal is to make sure that we keep our focus on the consumer. The business can continue to thrive, but it’s when we turn our attention away from the consumer that we start to have issues. You know, we we think of it as like a three legged stool. You’ve got the lender, you’ve got the dealer, you’ve got the F and G product company that are the legs of the stool. But the center seat of that stool is the consumer or the the hub of a wheel as well. So if we keep our focus there, then everybody else can be successful. And you don’t have the regulator hammering people because something’s gone awry.

Kevin Rosenquist: Mhm. Yeah. Good point. So let’s talk a little bit about uh Citadel. It’s your your flagship platform. How does it fit into the, the, the process of of buying a car and financing a car.

Stephen McDaniel: So when we started doing this, it was very manual. We had lenders that needed help right away. And so the way it started was we were literally getting emails of phony product forms. We were taking a look at them saying, hey, this, this has this issue, this has that issue. We were emailing back the the lender would go to the dealer and say, hey, there are some issues with the products that you’re wanting us to finance. It’s not the dealers products, it’s another it’s the product company. So now the dealer is trying to answer the lenders questions. We did that for close to a year, and then the lenders that we were working with, they were like, man, we really feel like we’ve been protected here. Now we know what we’re financing. We have copies of the contracts. Could you tell us, is there anything you would do to improve this process? And that’s when the second light bulb flipped on and we’re like, look like we were insurance regulatory attorneys. And there was a piece of software that exists for Geico and State Farm where they file life insurance policies with state regulators, and we said we can sort of mirror that concept for lenders and Fannie products. That’s when Citadel was created. So Citadel is really a submission software that has every Fannie product company in America as a registered user of that platform. Now, when a Fannie product company develops a new Fannie product, they file that product on Citadel with Sentinel and they say, I want this approved for financing with all of your lenders.

Stephen McDaniel: And then we have 30 some odd, both attorneys and non-attorneys that are reviewing these contracts. They’re looking at contracts all day. We lock them in a basement. We throw some food and water under the door, but they’re constantly looking at those from the eye of the consumer to make sure that lender is protected. And then that database, which I think now has 140 some odd thousand Fannie product forms in it, some of them with a green check mark, some of them with an X on it, with the goal to get them all to a green check mark once they fix the issues we’ve identified. Now that software and database is delivered to the lender. So if you go. Toyota is one of our customers. So is Nissan. If you go by Toyota Tundra and you decide you want to buy the tire and wheel product that’s being offered to you by the dealership, when the dealer packages that deal up to send it to Toyota, Toyota or any of our lenders will validate that product form has that green check mark in Citadel.  so a lot more complicated than that. But but on its base, it’s as simple as that too. And so most of our lenders now, at the time of origination of a loan, they’re pinging our database via API to validate that the form that was sold to you at the dealership is the form that has been validated in Citadel as a compliant form and one that’s going to provide value to the consumer.

Kevin Rosenquist: Okay. Okay. And you know, one of the things that we you mentioned earlier, we touched on earlier was, was the lack of consumer understanding of what’s going on. Like you said, you I thought this was over. And now they’re trying to upsell me on stuff. You know, the old joke for people is, is the undercoating or whatever the car dealer is trying to dupe you on, right? Like, that’s what we’re trained to think. How can we share? How can you and the dealers shift that focus to say, hey, this isn’t we’re not trying to screw you here. You know, we’re these are products you don’t have to accept, but they’re here if you want them because they’ll help. They could help you down the road.

Stephen McDaniel: Yeah. So it’s important for me and for my vision of this company. As you can imagine, when you’re starting a company, you know, there are times where you’re sort of saying, is this all worth it? Right? You know, I was practicing law, had a good life. I enjoyed what I was doing. I saw something that I thought was an opportunity. And there were days early on where it was like, oh man, what am I doing? I had two, two young girls and a wife and a mortgage. And, you know, it always talked to my dad about those, those early tribulations. And he would always say to me, well, do you think you’re doing the right thing? And I know 100% that what we do is the right thing. And that would always keep me charged up going forward. It’s the mission.

Kevin Rosenquist: I think every, every entrepreneur has that battle, right?

Stephen McDaniel: Yeah, for sure. But when you know you’re doing the right thing, you can always buoy yourself to continue on. And so from my perspective, we started as a B2B company. And that’s where we sit today, right? We work for the lender and we work for the product companies to make sure that they are creating products that are going to get funding by lenders. Everybody’s happy dealers selling a compliant product. My long term vision for our company is to one day when a consumer walks into a dealership, Hasif and I sit and review this product, and maybe that’s pie in the sky, but there are so many products out there. And look, I was an attorney that wrote some of these contracts. We review them. There’s no way your everyday consumer could look at one of these contracts in an FBI office. In that short of a span, read through all 17 pages, understand why they’re still, you know. Yeah. So I envision one day that will be sort of the Angie’s List for F and G products, right? Where maybe there’s an app consumers have access to.  you know, I know that the folks that know who we are, they’ve asked that question within a dealership. And I want a dealership to be proud to say, yes, it’s F and I Sentinel approved, pull up the dealership website, show them that it’s got the green check mark next to it, and the consumer has some peace of mind.

Stephen McDaniel: Now there is always the unique aspects of every deal. So I was talking about that cap on that gap waiver earlier.  You know, you’ve got to make sure the consumer is educated on these products, which we want to do. But then also, you know, the consumer is going to have to while they’re in that what we call the fly box. You know, I think they’re going to have to slow themselves down and make sure that they understand and they ask the right questions, which we want to help educate them on. The other thing that we make sure even in states that don’t require it, all of these products, as you said, are should be optional and they should be cancelable and there should be a full refund period every one of our lenders requires, even if the state doesn’t at least a minimum of 30 days. Where you go home, you’re in your living room and you get to look at that 17 page contract with a cup of coffee, figure it out, and then if you decide this isn’t for me, you should have the right to cancel that product and receive a refund.  and if it’s within that 30 day window or 60 day window, depending on the state or the lender, you should have that period of time to get a full refund.

Kevin Rosenquist: How has things. How’s the car buying process changed? Well, I should I should say Covid changed the car buying process as it changed many things. You know, more online sales, less in-person negotiation. Is that impacted the compliance side of auto finance? Has that changed the way you do business with with FNI Sentinel 100%.

Stephen McDaniel: Right. So more and more is is moving towards investments in digital retailing. I bought two cars now literally did not step foot in the dealership.  doc, you signed the agreements. Car was delivered to my house. I handed the key. They took the trade in. I mean, literally didn’t walk into the dealership. And some consumers want that.

Kevin Rosenquist: You didn’t even test drive it or anything.

Stephen McDaniel: Didn’t test drive it because I was rebuying the newer model of a car that I had already had. So that makes sense, I do, yeah. So because of that, these digital retail tools are becoming much more prevalent. You’ve got Capital One that’s got a pretty large one across all dealerships. And so what we’re seeing now is F and I products that are being offered in that digital retail environment. And so our chief product officer and our technology team are working with digital retail providers to say, hey, let’s validate these are good FNI products while you’re offering them or serving them up as what we call it in the industry, online to the consumer. And so that’s really changed our focus. We call it flush left. So if you’re validating that product at the time of origination, it’s after the deal. Consumers probably left the dealership. We want to move that validation further and further left all the way to that shopping experience. You know, when they’re in the digital world before they even walk into a dealership, assuming they do walk into the dealership and you’ve seen whatever happens with it remains to be seen. But the Federal Trade Commission has this rule out what’s called the cars rule. And that particular rule is very, very focused on digital advertising in a digital environment. And so more and more focus is being put on that digital environment, just because that seems to be where everything’s moving now. There’s still some people that want to go to the dealership. They they love the experience. But by and large, I think if you ask most consumers, they might go in for a test drive. But if they could do all of the negotiation via email, text and do the purchasing online, I think most consumers would say, give me that all day rather than sit in a dealership for four hours.

Kevin Rosenquist: Oh, it’s.

Stephen McDaniel: Such a long process. The glass, they go to the glass room, you know, and then they come back and then they go back and then they. Yeah, it’s a.

Kevin Rosenquist: It’s like a full day. Yeah.

Stephen McDaniel: It yeah, it is a full day. 100%.

Kevin Rosenquist: Do you see it going more in that direction of what you were just talking about. I mean is it going to be like almost like you’re on Amazon buying a product and getting the warranty? Like as options show up there, do you think that’s is that the near future?

Stephen McDaniel: I do think that is the future for sure. Whether it’s the near future is another question. You know, dealerships have invested quite a bit in building their brick and mortar dealerships, right? So they want the consumer in I think dealerships more and more are focused on what that industry calls fixed ops, which is your service lane, and they’re focusing more on making sure that they can service those vehicles. Still having the sales room. But I think you’ll see probably less and less investment. They’re more focused on test drives, to your point. And then the delivery of the vehicle and the purchase experience might not be in the dealership. It might be the delivery like I experienced. Now, some of it was a necessity coming out of Covid and during Covid where just inventory didn’t exist. Right. So you could go to a lot. There wasn’t a car for you to look at on a lot.  so you were building it and then shipping it. So I think we’ll see more and more of that. I just think that’s the way of the world. You know, I’ve got a business partner that just bought a Tesla for his daughter, never set foot in the Tesla shop, and they just showed up to a delivery center and that was it.

Kevin Rosenquist: Drove the car home.

Stephen McDaniel: 20 minute experience for him. And you know, he loved it. He was able to build it all online.

Kevin Rosenquist: It’s funny what you said too, because I’ve known people who like the dealership experience, too. There’s one friend of mine in particular. He’s also a lawyer. He loves the negotiating aspect of it. You know, he loves that. He thrives on it. And I was telling him, I’m like, you know, we bought my wife’s car at CarMax, and I appreciated the process of it being like, that’s the price. It’s it’s easier. So if you can get me to a point where I don’t even have to leave the house, I don’t know, I think I think I could see myself being down for that. The test drive, you know, sometimes cars just feel good or don’t feel good. So there’s like there’s there’s that aspect to it. But as long as you kind of feel confident in the, in that part of it, like you fit in it well and I’m tall, so I’ve got enough headroom and like all that stuff, you know.  but but yeah, I mean I would say I would be on the team of like, yeah, I’d rather not sit in a dealership for four hours. I’d rather sit in my computer right here and do it. Yeah.

Stephen McDaniel: We, uh, back when I was in law school, we flipped a car out there in Colorado, and so we had to purchase another vehicle. And at the time, I think it was.

Kevin Rosenquist: So you flipped the car?

Stephen McDaniel: Oh, yeah.  I flipped a car on it.

Kevin Rosenquist: Physically flipped. You didn’t buy it and sell it, right?

Stephen McDaniel: No, I didn’t buy it and sell it. I physically flipped it on the way. It was spring break. I was in law school. We were heading to one of our buddies in law school, had a had a free house in Vail and oh, Floridian. Right. So I’m driving down, I guess, is it 70 up to the mountains and I hit a patch of ice, went over an embankment. Thankfully no one was injured. In fact, the snowboards were just fine. Uh, thank God highway patrolman showed up and he’s like, where were you headed? And I told him and he said, well, you’re still going, right? I’m like, no, I guess we’re going back to Boulder. He said, well, why would you do that? Your snowboards are fine. Everybody’s fine. I was like, you know what? That’s a good call. We got a free house for a week. But moral of that story is we’ve replaced it with an all wheel drive. It was right when, uh, I guess it’s Land Rover came out with their real, real small vehicle. We were replacing a Nissan Xterra, and it was actually the same cost as the Xterra. You don’t negotiate in a Land Rover dealership. That’s just the deal. Never had that experience until that time.

Kevin Rosenquist: Oh, really? I didn’t know that about Land Rover.

Stephen McDaniel: At least that’s what at the time, that’s the way it was. So we walked in and the price was the price. And I was like, man, that was amazing.

Kevin Rosenquist: Like.

Stephen McDaniel: I mean, I’ve always been of the opinion, like, just tell me what you’re making. Like, you gotta make money on a business, right? Yeah. I don’t I don’t care if there’s a markup. Just let’s be fair. Tell me what the markup is. If I think that’s a fair markup, let’s call it a day and get this thing done. Yeah. You know, the back and forth could be very taxing.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, I’m not a fan.

Stephen McDaniel: Of.

Kevin Rosenquist: It. I just it’s just, I don’t know, I feel like it’s uncomfortable. It’s just not in my blood, you know? Yeah.

Stephen McDaniel: I’m right there with you.

Kevin Rosenquist: All right. Well, Stephen , thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate your time and all the insight.

Stephen McDaniel: Yeah, it was great to chat with you, I appreciate it.