How Fintech Builders Fix Broken Bank Infrastructure to Enable Real-Time Payments Darragh Buckley

Episode Overview

Darragh Buckley, a native of Limerick, Ireland, has been a pivotal figure in the fintech landscape, blending deep technical expertise with entrepreneurial vision. His academic journey led him to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), where he earned a degree in engineering. It was during his time at MIT that Buckley reconnected with fellow Limerick natives, Patrick and John Collison, who were in the nascent stages of developing Stripe, a now-prominent online payment processing platform. Recognizing the potential of their venture, Buckley became Stripe’s first employee in 2010, immersing himself in the foundational aspects of the company’s growth and infrastructure development.

At Stripe, Buckley played an instrumental role in establishing and scaling the company’s banking infrastructure. His responsibilities encompassed negotiating and implementing agreements with major banking partners, notably Wells Fargo, and overseeing the integration of Stripe’s systems with established financial networks. This experience provided him with a comprehensive understanding of the intricacies involved in bridging modern payment solutions with traditional banking systems. After dedicating several years to Stripe’s expansion, Buckley departed in 2016 to explore new avenues in the financial technology sector

Episode Transcript

Darragh Buckley: My friend happens to use increase for his banking, so he jumped on to to increase and sent a real time payments transfer.  he went to the car dealer and was. I think I’ve sent you a transfer. Can you check your account? And the dealer was like, again, it’s not how banks work. And he’s like, just humor me for a second. Can you go to the screen and press refresh? Dealer clicks refresh on the screen. And of course it’s a real time payments transfer, so it shows up immediately.  mind blown from the auto dealer.  so we do have real time payments in the US. We don’t have many of the last mile parts that we need, the productization layers that we need,  real time payments is north of 70%,  distribution in the US and continues to grow.

Kevin Rosenquist: Hey there, and welcome to Pay Pod, where we bring you conversations with the trailblazers shaping the future of payments in fintech. My name is Kevin Rosenquist. Thanks for listening. Financial services power our daily lives from payments to lending, but the infrastructure behind them is often outdated and difficult to navigate. Increase is tackling this challenge by rethinking how businesses build and integrate banking solutions. And today I’m joined by Darragh Buckley, who is at the forefront of this transformation. We break down the complexities of banking infrastructure, explore the growing role of embedded finance, and discuss how increase is shaping the future of financial services. So please welcome Darragh Buckley. The financial industry has seen massive innovation in consumer facing products, but the the infrastructure behind them often lags. What? What are the biggest inefficiencies that you’ve seen in traditional banking infrastructure that increase is working to solve?

Darragh Buckley: Oh great question. I think for me. It’s pretty interesting that we’re missing a lot of the last mile delivery.  the networks that underlie the US economy, be it fed ACH, Fedwire,  the Federal Reserve’s check network,  they all work and work well. They,  cause us to be able to interact with the rest of the country economically.  but they’re missing just that last little bit.  if I was to give a,  a story when I spent some time at at stripe.  stripe is hesitant to do disbursements payments to merchants by wire.  and it’s not because wires aren’t prevalent or,  good or effective. It was because the last mile delivery of it wasn’t automatable.  stripe at that time worked with,  Wells Fargo as a banking partner. And,  the way in which a wire would fail if you executed it on Wells Fargo. So if you sent it to Wells Fargo to send and they were unable to deliver, it would involve an email. And it’s just hard to build good, reliable product on top of an email failure flow.  there’s no fault of Wells Fargo here. They had built their systems for their typical users and use cases and,  sending hundreds and thousands of wires a day,  was reasonably not contemplated.  but that’s what stripe needed. And,  so an early thing that we built at increase was handling many of those exception failures,  by API. So having our users machines talk to our machines, both for the happy cases of everything working fine, but also for,  the less than happy cases of this has been returned. Why has it been returned? Can it be repaired?  automating all of those is is fun and interesting.  that’s a pretty uncreative answer to your question of what’s missing within us finances. And me saying, can we just, you know, finish,  filling in some potholes and painting the roads?  but truly, I feel that’s that’s the part that we’re currently missing.  if,  you’ll forgive another another analogy.

Kevin Rosenquist: No, I love analogies. Bring it on.

Darragh Buckley: We’ve got on. Great. Uh uh.  yeah. Likely have been to many metropolises around the US, and,  you’ve ridden the subway.  and there’s something,  interesting that has changed in subways in the last 10 to 20 years, depending on,  the city you’re in.  we still run very similar trains through very similar tunnels, but now You’re in the train station, the board and the board will say the next train arrives in ten minutes. And this vastly changes how you consume and use the subway. You feel better about going to it late on a Friday. You feel differently about the stress level when you’re trying to get to work. And that level of transparency and that transparency. Communicating reliability to you is similar to what increase does. We haven’t fundamentally changed fed, ACH, Fedwire check 21 or anything else. But we try to,  communicate reliability to you by giving you transparency.  I can jump into that more if that’s of interest. I can also get off my hobby horse.

Kevin Rosenquist: No, no, no, stay on the horse. I, I, I definitely I wanted to keep asking to ask more about that, about how you remove the barriers and, and what you’re doing to to help help build more current financial products.

Darragh Buckley: Okay.  I’ll give a typical increased user.  so a payroll company that uses increase,  payroll is one of those things that we want to be boring. We want to be unexciting. We want to be reliable. It’s just very important that Friday mornings when my paycheck arrives,  I can make my mortgage payment.  there’s a point of stress in every,  engineer,  and every engineer who works in payrolls week. And that’s Thursday night,  at the end of Thursday night,  they have,  added up all the numbers for who should get paid what what instructions should go where.  and then their machines talk to upstream machines and then say, pay this person this amount.  and to a dissatisfying degree, that can be the end of what their Thursday night looks like. And you can end up with fretful sleep on Thursday night of, I hope upstream received it correctly. I hope upstream is actioning it correctly.  I hope nothing between me and the,  employee,   ends up surprising,  with increase. What we do is the instruction comes to us, we immediately acknowledge the payroll,  provider that we’ve received, the instruction, we prepare the message for the Federal Reserve, and we send it off directly to the Federal Reserve.

Darragh Buckley: The Federal Reserve acknowledges that within 15 minutes, we tell the payroll company, heads up, we’ve sent it to the Federal Reserve. And 15 minutes later, we say, heads up. The Federal Reserve has acknowledged it. You know so far that everything has transited through increase,   boringly,  which is is,  the correct thing here.  increase puts inside a canary transfer into that file so that we get to see that we have received a transfer. That was in this file. And this has gone out and back to the Federal Reserve.  The Federal Reserve has done all of their parts correctly also.  and at that stage, that’s when you can go to sleep,  peacefully on a Thursday night. If anything has broken in that chain, you would know and you would know immediately. You’re not waiting until Friday morning when you get a,  a,  excited, energetic phone call from someone who has not received their payroll yet,  you know, on Thursday night. And that’s very beneficial because oftentimes you can take corrective action at that time.  I really enjoy seeing that increase is lovingly boring from this perspective . We just try to do all of our little pieces, well, reliably, and transparently. Apparently, and our users enjoy us for that.

Kevin Rosenquist: That’s like one of the most user friendly descriptions of something technical I think I’ve ever heard. That was really well done. So all right, so you mentioned the payroll company. There’s a big shift towards embedded finance these days and different and various platforms. And we’re seeing non-financial companies, retailers, marketplaces, SaaS platforms offering financial products. What do you think is driving this shift? Is it a consumer demand for less friction? Is it a security thing? Is it maybe a little bit of everything? Because obviously we don’t. No one likes being sent somewhere else to make a payment. It always kind of freaks you out a little bit, unless it’s PayPal or something like that. It’s a little freaky. So what do you think is the driving force?

Darragh Buckley: Yeah, I think it’s because we’ve gotten better at some of our specializations.  if you’re a,  a dentist in Boston, your banking needs look more like a dentist in Portland, Oregon than they do a,  you know, the electronics store in Boston.   we typically have had banks be geographically focused. We’ve had certainly large, more industry focused specialized banks,  you know, manufacturing, etc..  but even those have been less,   prevalent than you’d imagine. And so the push towards more,  more specialized financial services that are in the flow of what you’re doing,  I think is great. It’s a sign that we’ve gotten better at,  dispersing some of the technology to where it’s most useful and used. It also leads us to safer and sounder banking. You know that if you’ve specialized in dentists, you know what the dentist chair,  retails at and and therefore you feel better lending against the dentists ability to purchase that chair from that vendor,  because you know and understand what’s being bought.  similarly, you know, and understand the seasonality to dentistry that you perhaps don’t know about electronics and kinds of specializations.   I think lead to better banking for the banking consumers. So,  you and me as receiving those services,  but also,  safer and sounder banking itself,  from the regulated entities.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Speaking on that note about security and stuff, I, you know, fintech moves fast. That’s no secret. I talk about it a lot with people on this show about, you know, banking regulations. You need security. You need stability.  you know, how do you balance rapid innovation with the need for compliance and risk management? Is it is it a is a fine? Is it easier than it seems because it seems hard?

Darragh Buckley: I think,  you know, at a naive bifurcation of the world of,  like technology and compliance, folks,   you need folks from both sides being able to walk in the shoes of the others.  it’s not unreasonable to expect engineers to read and know the Bank Secrecy Act documents. It’s not unreasonable to expect,  compliance folks to know and understand what is synchronously validated versus asynchronously validated.  I think those,  the, those mixes need to happen more frequently. There are also things that you can do around technical design to make compliance. Um. The more ingrained in the day to day.   if I was to give an example. So there’s a rule called the travel rule with respect to,  wire payments in particular. It,   the subject of the rule is,  payments above certain dollar thresholds,  must pass along certain data elements that,  so must have certain data elements traverse the network.  you can write that in your policies and your procedures, and you can hope that the engineer has read the policies and procedures and implements them correctly, and that no one makes a change to the variable of the threshold.   and come exam season, your,   sample your data and your hope that,  all of the data was present, etc., etc..  and this perhaps was the traditional way, but a better way is you have this embedded within your testing. You have this literally software testing. You have this embedded within,  within the code itself.  you’re continually pulling and verifying that all of those data elements have traversed the network as expected. You,  you’re at a far higher degree of confidence that everything is working as it should.  if you have compliance built further down into into the technology.  but to have that, you have to have the compliance folks willing to jump into the technology, and you have to have the technology folks willing to read the travel rule. And I think both of those things are reasonable to expect these days.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, I would think so. So some fintechs work with banks with traditional banking systems. Others kind of bypass them altogether. How does this approach differ? And what do you see as the future of collaboration between fintechs and banks?

Darragh Buckley: Great question. I think there’s a, uh. One of the things that I’ve seen in the last kind of 15, 20 years has been we built a lot of startups on top of,  bank cores, and oftentimes we ran into technical limitations of the bank core itself.  We ended up, for example, with a lot of co-mingled accounts,  on the bank core. I’ll put everyone’s deposits all in the one place, and I’ll run my own ledger on top of it to know and understand who is actually owed what from this big pot of money.  and, you know, we did that because of the technical limitations of the core. Oh, it took too long to provision an account. It took a day, and I wanted to be able to do my sign ups in less than a day. So obviously, I use this,  this big bucket.  so working around some of those constraints has led us to it certainly has allowed many businesses to grow successfully, but it’s also run us into some, some issues. Um. One of the things that I wanted to do at increase was build our own core for that reason.  just to to go again with some of those constraints, we have learned many lessons from when we built those. And wouldn’t it be nice if we could start again?  so increase runs, what’s known as our own core, our own maintenance of transactions and balances.  but importantly, we also talk directly to the underlying networks. So we talk directly to the Federal Reserve for their networks and a group called the clearinghouse for their networks, as well as visa for,  card issuing products.  so I think,  partly the track here has been building on top of banks has been very successful in the past, but we need to drop down another layer.  and,  I’m pretty happy that increase has been able to do that.

Kevin Rosenquist: Something that I’d like to ask people on this show when, when applicable, is about real time payments. Because it’s, it’s it’s interesting to me. And the more people I talk to from other countries, how just how normal real time payments are in other parts of the world. Certainly not here. What in your mind is holding back the real time financial infrastructure? And do you see increase fitting into that evolution?

Darragh Buckley:  the short answer is yes. But let me give you the more interesting long answer. Okay.   I’m an immigrant to the US. I did not grow up here, I moved here.  and,  that at times lets me see some patterns. And one particular pattern is,  oftentimes you can see the early systems in the US getting so far ahead, stagnating and then,  systems elsewhere surpassing those, and then you needing to get a certain amount of gap before the US makes a jump itself.  cell phones were this way back in the, you know, early 2000, right? Like it was, Ireland did not have the concept of a dropped call, and it was strange arriving in the US when. You know, the primary advertising was    similar has happened with US financial systems. Ach went in particularly early and you get to see which countries came after. Ach, you know,  direct entry in Australia. Got to learn many things from the US system and then implement things like checksums differently. And so you get to see the evolution that happened afterwards.  real time payments in, in other nations,  got to get more ahead because the problem was more acute.  we are now, though, at the stage where we do have real time payments in the US.  can I tell another story or are you going to be, uh.

Kevin Rosenquist: Stories are the best way to to to explain.

Darragh Buckley: Okay. A mate of it mine.  I was buying a car,  about two weeks ago, and he was on at the car dealership over a weekend.   he wanted to walk away with the keys, and so he was willing to, you know, pay cash for the car right there. He was actually doing a trade. So it was just, you know,  paying the difference.  and so he says to the, the the car dealer,  okay, can I, can I write you a check for the difference? And you give me the keys and I walk away. And the car dealer was. I’m sorry. This is over our threshold amount for accepting checks.  we won’t be able to do that.  and then the car dealer said. But I’ve got an idea for you. I’ll give you a loan for the amount of the difference, and you can come back and you can pay us on Monday, but that means you can you can drive it off. My friend was, you know, paused. And I know this doesn’t seem right. I don’t necessarily need a alone. Can. Can I send you a bank transfer now? You know, the car dealer walks over and hand on shoulder of like, oh, sweet summer child. That’s not how banks work.  we we don’t get to do that here.

Darragh Buckley: And my friend was, you know, let me try. Give me a second.  my friend happens to use an increase for his banking. So he jumped on to to increase and sent a real time payments transfer. He went to the car dealer and was. I think I’ve sent you a transfer. Can you check your account? And the dealer was like, again, it’s not how banks work. And he’s like, just humor me for a second. Can you go to the screen and press refresh? Dealer clicks refresh on the screen. And of course it’s a real time payments transfer. So it shows up immediately.  mind blown from the,  auto dealer.  so we do have real time payments in the US. We don’t have many of the last mile parts that we need. The productization layers that we need,  real time payments is north of 70%,  distribution in the US and continues to grow. Fed is now running a fast follow strategy on it. And, you know, we’ll soon be at that similar number.   We live in the future that we were all promised with respect to real time payments. It is certainly not evenly distributed to everyone yet.  Definitely. But we’re not there.

Kevin Rosenquist: Okay. That’s encouraging. You’re the most glass half full answer to that that I’ve had thus far.

Darragh Buckley: What have been the hesitations? Why? Why do folks feel like we’re not there? Just because when you log.

Kevin Rosenquist: Into it’s just it’s just you can’t, you know, like you don’t pay, you don’t like. It’s more talking about merchants, you know, like let’s or like, you know, like a, like a store, you know, your store down the street. They don’t have really a way to get payment from you immediately because people are paying with Visa and Mastercard and, you know,  Apple Pay and Google Pay and they’re, they’re not they’re, they’re they’re getting faster in a lot of ways, but they’re not instant. So I think that’s why there’s the more, I don’t know, negativity towards it, that it hasn’t been kind of embedded into our day to day lives as much. I mean, your example is great, but you don’t do that at, you know, you don’t do that at the grocery store. You know what I mean?

Darragh Buckley: Correct. At the grocery store, my mom pays for her groceries with Apple Pay on her watch. And I’m going to claim that, like,  which science fiction? Uh. Book are we,  are we talking about that that doesn’t meet our definition of, like,  we’re doing,  we’ve made huge advances in payment recently, and we should continue to make more and we should continue to fill in the last miles.  um.

Kevin Rosenquist: But when she pays with her watch. How long does it take before the store gets the money?

Darragh Buckley: Correct. They get their settlement done, you know. The next business day. But there is nothing there that’s fundamentally. Like technically limited.

Kevin Rosenquist: That’s holding it back from a technological standpoint. Yeah. Yeah.

Darragh Buckley: Correct. Everything I’ve described there on the, you know, real estate transfer, of course, that same is available  within visa for settlement. We at times choose not to use it and we choose not to use it for different reasons. But we’re certainly not at a, you know, electrons sense limitation here. We are at policy limitation policy.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah yeah yeah. What do you think about AI automation? how do you see automation playing a role in the future of financial infrastructure? I mean it’s already playing a role. It’s a big question, I know. What do you think is the next domino to fall there?

Darragh Buckley: Yeah. I,  where you may have,  played me as an a,  an optimist in the former,  story, I think, unfortunately, I’ll play,  less so here. The limiting factor for, um. Okay. When most folks describe here would be my ideal artificial intelligence interaction with my financial life, they describe what it would be like to have the private banker who knows your details and knows your interactions.  and having that prevalent to us all,  literally. Can I text this person and have them make that transfer for me?   and the limiting part of that is certainly not sending a text. It’s certainly not us parsing the text and receiving the instructions. The limiting part for that so far has been converting those instructions into financial network messages, which is hilarious. Last part of limitation, right? Like the the, um uh  what do you mean? You have like semantic interpretation of the messages. Correct. But not, you know, that last hook between the text message and fedwire.   yeah. And so I think the thing we’re, we’re just missing still is just more programmatic access to the financial networks.   and of course, I’m very, very biased here, given the fact that I view this as it increases job and companies like increases job to provide that last mile.  but we’re so, so very close to to that being the common interaction. If that’s what people want.

Kevin Rosenquist: Then how come you said you were you were not as,  glass half full on this one. It’s not that’s not so bad.

Darragh Buckley: And,   the part that we’re missing is, is good product and APIs. We just haven’t pushed that out well enough yet.

Kevin Rosenquist: It’s substantial. The big thing we’re missing is not small, is what you’re saying.

Darragh Buckley: Oh, no. No. In fact, it’s it’s it’s kind of even,  the opposite. It’s, uh.  we don’t need to concentrate on artificial intelligence yet. In finance, we need to concentrate on. Can we please just move the CSV files reliably? And when we get all of that correct,  then we can jump on to the,  the, the the bright new pastures. But we’ve got a little bit of, like,  homework and blocking and tackling to do first before we get to, um. Yeah.   can we not be distracted with the shiny things when we’ve got our vegetables to eat first, please?

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, it’s a good way to put it. I mean, we are definitely. Yeah. Distracted by the shiny things is very true, especially when it comes to AI and what we expect from it. From it. We already have amazing expect amazingly high expectations for AI. And it’s you know, it’s only going to get worse.

Darragh Buckley:  yes. It’s, uh it’s,  it’s been absolutely fantastic.  I when the innovation groups in,  at banks and regulators and industries are concentrating on artificial intelligence, when what we need to do is finish off the last part of, you know, finish our own work first.  I think is, is the thing I’m most encouraging towards.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Well, good. That’s someone’s got to do it. I’m glad you are. So you’ve been involved in fintech and banking infrastructure for quite some time. Correct?

Darragh Buckley:    more and more each day. Yes.  I,  joined stripe in 2010. So I was the first employee at stripe.

Kevin Rosenquist: You were the first employee.

Darragh Buckley: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Rosenquist: Um.

Darragh Buckley:    back in the day, down in Palo Alto.  and it’s been fun to see things grow and develop since then.   there’s, you know, the whole ecosystem that has grown around banks and bank partners.  The amazing things that we can do now that we weren’t able to do in 2010. And for me, the frustration was just seeing the, the limiting part was,  passing through the data and capabilities from the underlying financial networks so that we could build a fund product on top. And that was the motivation for increase.

Kevin Rosenquist: Okay. And what would you say has been the biggest shift that you’ve seen since you started at stripe? As far as the world of fintech goes, what has been the biggest change that you’ve come across? Cross.

Darragh Buckley: Um. I don’t want to give you an overly trite answer. So let me reflect for a second before I reflect. Yeah.  I think one of the most fun isn’t necessarily specific to financial technology, but more just engineering and engineering tools generally, because we as an industry have gotten better at building engineering tools, better at infrastructure, and better at hosting better with security, better with,    just giving more empowerment to more people.  it’s let us,  spend some of that saved budget on other things, like our conversation earlier was how we should expect engineers to go read the Bank Secrecy Act, how we should expect engineers to know and understand what the travel rule is.  you can’t kind of have that expectation if the person you know needs to keep a million other things in their mind, but because we’ve done such a better job with the tooling, you know, now you can,   and I think we’ve also gotten to the stage of having more engineers, like, willing to do that work,   willing to dig into the details rather than saying, oh, that’s the bank’s problem. I,  someone else will get to that. That isn’t where my worry budget should be spent.   that we have,  more of the technology industry.   at times it involves reading the primary source. At times it involves looking at the financial institution, letters that come out from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. At times it involves talking to experienced practitioners about, listen, I read this rule. Is this really how it’s applied? Interesting. It’s interpreted this way. I wouldn’t have known that.  you know, we just have higher expectations of folks who are building product now, and I think it’s correct. And we are able to have that because we’ve gotten so good with tooling.

Kevin Rosenquist: It’s a good point. The tools. Yeah, that’s a really good point. And I you know, I was going to ask to, you know, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, you know there’s a lot of fintechs popping up now. Right. Especially with AI and blockchain and all this stuff and crypto. There’s a lot of fintechs out there. Is it? It feels like a lot of entrepreneurs are heading towards this space. Is it getting oversaturated or do you think it’s good to have this increase? No pun intended. With the name of your company, increase in innovation, in in competition, if you will, and new ideas. Is that a good thing or is it becoming kind of oversaturated?

Darragh Buckley:  I think I would have said this in like 2021 that things were getting a bit too,  to read.   The last kind of,  two, two and a half years within financial technology, if anything, have gone very much the other direction. Right. Like there’s been a large amount of regulatory attention which caused partner banks to become more hesitant and want to step back.   and we’re seeing some of that reverse now within the last, you know, 3 to 4 months.   The administration changes, obviously factoring into some of that. But this was happening before the administration changed.  I think I’m very excited by, as we touched on earlier, the kind of more specialized financial products, the, you know, lending for dentists, lending for the insurance agents. Right. The kind of thing that that the,  the things you can do now because the tooling underneath is better.   how having your, you know, I don’t know, use an electronic store, having your banking system integrated in with your inventory system integrated in with your payment system integrated in with your enterprise resource management tool.   like all of those get get   more fun and additive as the ecosystem develops.  uh  so no, I don’t think we’re overcrowding yet at the moment.

Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, I like I’ve worked for companies before that we had retail sales and stuff like that, and I was amazed at how poorly things talk to each other. A lot of the time, you know, like your point about inventory and finance and all that stuff and like how I’m excited. It’s one of the things I’m most excited about, about tech, about this technology, where it’s heading is making things so much more streamlined, so much easier to work with, even just in business. I still feel like I have so many apps that I use. I would love to like streamline stuff. You know what I mean? It’s like, I’ve got this for this and that for that. Which bookmark folder do I have that in? I don’t even remember anymore. You know, like it’s, it’s nice. You do like to see things, talk to each other more efficiently so that you don’t have the. I don’t know that sort of separation between everything.

Darragh Buckley: Okay. So I’ll tell you a story,   of part of my frustration with this, I took some time off after stripe. I was, you know, doing a bit of traveling and starting a family, etc. and,  one of the projects I was working on was,  you know, a family finance app. I wanted to have a unified view of them,  where money was be able to spin up a card for grandparents who were coming to town that I wanted to, you know, give them a card so I could pay for the kids going to the zoo, etc., etc..  and the most frustrating part was the data quality.   Coming from the banking layer,  plaid does a fantastic job of pulling in data from banks all around the nation’s cause.  but the job they’re doing is just very hard, right? Like you’re trying to rehydrate the data that comes off of a statement descriptor to make it interpretable.  It’s so much easier to characterize all of your Uber transactions if you’re able to look for Uber’s network identifier than if you’re trying to, you know, run a regular expression pattern matching on the description.  and that’s frustrating because the data exists correctly at the network level. We flatten it down at the banking level and then try to like pop it back up again,  at levels above there. But the obvious answer to that is like, why don’t we just high fidelity pass through the data and capability of the underlying networks. Um.  and, you know, it has some historical answers. I don’t want to overly, you know, make it overly trite to that question.  so you have to get into the details, but the, the, the, part one of the,   most frustrating parts about our data and capability is that they actually do exist. We’re just missing one part of our pipe to pass them through correctly.

Kevin Rosenquist:  Well, we got to get that. We got to get there to make it happen. Make it happen. Well.

Darragh Buckley: Cheers. Thanks, mate.

Kevin Rosenquist: The company’s increase. Darragh Buckley, thanks so much for being here.

Darragh Buckley: Gavin. Cheers. Thanks for taking the time.